The fight for our riding areas... at a higher level?

Lawyers, Guns & Money

Agree, & sooner rather than later! I picked up a booklet this week at the sled shop "Snowmobiling Fact Book" from GoSnowmobiling.org. It has alot of good facts that promote snowmobiling including effects on wildlife, snowpack, vegetation, people, local economies, etc. We need to fight with facts to hopefully show the bureaucrats that have the power to regulate land use that snowmobiles are not the problem that the "Antis" claim them to be.

Part of the problem is not knowing how to WIN against the land grabs. The facts are great and in our favor. Unfortunately emotions are what drive donations to the other side and they are able to collect a LOT more money than we ever have.


I think this line of thinking is the right direction. The greenies are using nation wide type of money collection and organization. We have mostly stuck to state sized organizations. I know Colorado sends a few people to DC every year or two to lobby but obviously this is small potatoes and isn't making much if any impact with decision makers.


I think to be successful at this the handful of national reps need to be paid well enough to leave their current jobs. Smart reliable people cost a fair amount to employ. Having a dedicated lawyer or two would be essential as well. Now we are looking at nearly $500k/yr just on salaries for good people. Then expenses to schlep them around, feed them, put them up in hotels and provided funds for media coverage for our plight be it print ads or even TV commercials. Now we are really getting into big money to be effective, probably need in excess of a million dollars a year to keep this viable.


I agree this is a good idea. Getting it moving and sustainable has always been the problem. SAWS lasted ten years before burnout and lack of funding took them out. We need national exposure, national funding, lawyers and representatives to have any hope of combatting this. Sounds simple enough until you really start trying to fund it. That is where we usually fall way short and have to rely on volunteers or low paid positions.

If the motorized / multiple use crowd had even 1/1000th the funding that the environazi groups had it would be a different story.

https://trib.com/lifestyles/recreat...cle_690610e9-0e2b-5462-94be-e8ab890de312.html

A Wyoming billionaire has revealed he plans to donate $1 billion to conserving public lands and oceans over the next 10 years.

Hansjörg Wyss, a Wilson resident, announced his intentions in a New York Times opinion piece titled, “We have to save the planet. So I’m donating $1 billion.”

He wrote that the additional money will accelerate the preservation of land and water in a way that protects them but also keeps them open to the public. His donation is part of a goal to protect 30 percent of the planet’s surface by 2030 in order to prevent many plant and animal species from going extinct. His inspiration, according to his op-ed, comes from places like Yellowstone National Park.

“We need to embrace the radical, time-tested and profoundly democratic idea of public-land protection that was invented in the United States, tested in Yellowstone and Yosemite, and now proven the world over,” he wrote.

Conservation groups in Wyoming were supportive and hopeful that the prospect of more resources could mean more conservation of wild spaces.

“What really underscores this right now, is that each year we’re learning more and more about the importance of maintaining the connectivity of landscapes and critical wildlife habitat,” said Dustin Bleizeffer, communications director for the Wyoming Outdoor Council.

Bleizeffer also stressed the economic and cultural value of intact public land.

More than half of Wyoming’s land is public, managed by a combination of federal and state agencies from the National Park Service to the Bureau of Land Management.

A recent study by independent firm Southwick Associates Inc. showed that hunting, angling and wildlife viewing on BLM land alone generated more than $1 billion in salaries and wages in the West. In Wyoming, wildlife-related activities generated more than $88 million in salaries.

“Over the past two decades, my foundation has supported local efforts to protect wild places in Africa, South America, Europe, Canada, Mexico and the United States, donating more than $450 million to help our partners conserve nearly 40 million acres of land and water,” Wyss wrote in his op-ed.

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Gotta love what a snowjob that story is .... First and foremost, "Wyoming Resident Hasjorg Wyss" ..... :face-icon-small-con

Oh that's right, its Ol' Cowboy Hans! He's like, ya know, a 5th generation Wyoming rancher :yuck:

So this is what we're up against .... How many billionaire snowmobilers do you think there are? One? 1/3rd of one?

We can't compete with their level of funding, period....

Yes, funding is a very large part of the fight but the even bigger battle is getting people to show up to meetings and comment on plans when they are needed. Groups like Sledpatriots.com are a "Higher level" group that consist of lawyers that can interpret the wording of land management plans. I work for a timber company in kalispell MT and the land my company owns is open to snowmobiling, dirt biking, hunting, Etc... but the scariest thing i see on a daily basis is how badly the people that own land adjacent to us want my company (PRIVATE LAND OWNER) to shut down their land to the public so only they can use it. They hate that people can hunt and sled in their backyard. Luckily they have no say in what we do and we can tell them to F*** off but these people are at every land use meeting saying how people arent respecting the land WHICH IS NOT TRUE AT ALL, so we need people on the other side of the fence to also be at the meetings so its not only their voice that is heard. The Forest service believe it or not will try and listen to all voices at meeting but all user groups have to be there. Higher level groups arent the cure all to multiple use issues

The USFS is full of its own agenda. Thinking that if you show up they will listen isn't really accurate. They may pretend to listen but for them closures are best, less work for them, same pay. They also tend to lean towards the liberal, save the earth side. Unlikely they are going to support motorized uses unless they are forced to.


The key points have been hit on. In addition to the WY billionaire, I have seen a list in the home of a client that had hundreds of thousands of dollars of annual donations to anti motorized groups. Highly unlikely we can compete on funding, no matter what we do.


The deck is very much stacked against us. What I like about the nationalized idea is that we may need to start by getting bad laws changed, bad policies and rules need to go as well. The land use planning process is a DISASTER at best. Bottom up has not worked, top down might but it wont be cheap or easy. That is why I think a good dose f civil disobedience is what really needs to happen. Force the USFS and BLM to deal with us, be a thorn in their side. That is how the greenines were successful.

We have to work with the FS to develop plans that suit our needs while also pleasing other groups. It is true that closing areas is the easiest option, but thats why we have to work with the forest service to develop suitable plans, they won't do it themselves. being a thorn isnt the way to put it, its more "the squeaky wheel gets the grease" kind of attitude. We have to keep constant pressure on them to remind them that we are a user group that needs to have and input on management plans. They do listen, that doesnt mean you see immediate action, but where in the government have you ever seen immediate action? Its a process, and its a process that we must endure and play by their rules or risk being left on the outside. Trust me I deal with the timber side of the forest service. I know how frustrating it is, but you have to hold their hand through the process or they get scared and shut down like a child..... haha

If you really think you can work with them and move our sport forward, you are sadly mistaken.


Show me where we have had one single place re-opened to sledding after having been closed. Show me one instance where in a land use plan sledders have gained ground. Show me that your plan works and I am on board.


I spent the better part of a decade fighting for sled land use rights, including hand holding with the USFS. The BEST result I ever experienced was no loss, and that is extremely rare. It was no loss in one part of the forest but a huge loss in another part.


I am sorry but, your plan wont work, never has. Playing by rules that are stacked against you is a waste of time.


I think this is a discussion of how we could maybe step it up a notch, not a re-hash of decades of failed attempts to work with the USFS. Lets discuss new ways to advance our agenda not how you think you can work the existing system. I have NEVER seen anyone beat the existing system.

I usually stay out of topics like this, however it has come up a bunch this year. I believe it is a numbers game we need to show up to these hearings, meetings or whatever in THOUSANDS of people to protest. This is what the bunnyhuggers do. Strength and voices are in numbers. This is what the other side does they have money and numbers on there side. Most of the time by the time we know of a meeting a closure or whatever, its to late. The other side wants everything for free no fees. Snowmobiles have to pay to ride trails and areas so everyone should have to, I believe if these areas were all fee areas some of this closure form the bunnyhuggers would lessen. This is just my opinion, however I strongly believe strength in numbers is the way to fight these people. The other is to stop buying products from companies that support these people. This whole thing takes a lot of time. The other thing I see is the businesses and towns that benefit from outdoor rec. need to step up and fight also. This is just MHO.

Wintertime said:

I usually stay out of topics like this, however it has come up a bunch this year. I believe it is a numbers game we need to show up to these hearings, meetings or whatever in THOUSANDS of people to protest. This is what the bunnyhuggers do. Strength and voices are in numbers. This is what the other side does they have money and numbers on there side. Most of the time by the time we know of a meeting a closure or whatever, its to late. The other side wants everything for free no fees. Snowmobiles have to pay to ride trails and areas so everyone should have to, I believe if these areas were all fee areas some of this closure form the bunnyhuggers would lessen. This is just my opinion, however I strongly believe strength in numbers is the way to fight these people. The other is to stop buying products from companies that support these people. This whole thing takes a lot of time. The other thing I see is the businesses and towns that benefit from outdoor rec. need to step up and fight also. This is just MHO.

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This too has already been tried and failed. I organized a club, we showed up en masse to a bunch of meetings in the area. We easily outnumbered the greenies in standing room only meetings time and again with the USFS/BLM. Our little corner of the world did OK, just to the south in the same plan revision they lost another 40k acres.

We need a new plan. You guys seem to have this notion that the process is fair and unbiased, unfortunately for us, it isn't, not by a long shot. We are outmanned and underfunded. Given those facts and my experiences, I would like to see a NEW approach. Otherwise, the proof is in the pudding, we keep losing land.

What people fail to recognize is that showing up in numbers doesn't do squat unless those people take the time to tear apart the USFS documents and debunk the science within them.

The DEIS' that are released often have MANY holes in them and unless you attack them during the comment periods and call them on their errors and omissions they will be crammed through and incorporated into the FEIS. 9 times out of 10 the enterprise teams that the USFS puts together to draft these documents are from out of state and NOT familiar with local riding areas...the sledders are the subject matter experts.

One of the biggest problems that everyone in the sled community has is that not everyone has the time to read through technical 700 page documents to provide informed/substantive comments. There is some momentum on the national scale to get organized, hopefully it continues. I think everyone in the OSV community would much rather be proactive than reactive to land use issues.

Perhaps someone from the Blue Ribbon Coalition could chime in on this thread. I think Goridedoo has a point seconded by others here.

Is enough being done and is there an effective effort currently?

Big10inch said:

If you really think you can work with them and move our sport forward, you are sadly mistaken.


Show me where we have had one single place re-opened to sledding after having been closed. Show me one instance where in a land use plan sledders have gained ground. Show me that your plan works and I am on board.


I spent the better part of a decade fighting for sled land use rights, including hand holding with the USFS. The BEST result I ever experienced was no loss, and that is extremely rare. It was no loss in one part of the forest but a huge loss in another part.


I am sorry but, your plan wont work, never has. Playing by rules that are stacked against you is a waste of time.


I think this is a discussion of how we could maybe step it up a notch, not a re-hash of decades of failed attempts to work with the USFS. Lets discuss new ways to advance our agenda not how you think you can work the existing system. I have NEVER seen anyone beat the existing system.

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The Bridgeport Winter Recreation Area in California was created on the heels of the omnibus spending bill in 2010, which included a lot of wilderness expansion. An area that had previously been designated as 'recommended wilderness' which as anyone in Montana can tell you right now means it's essentially treated as wilderness. That was removed and added to an area that is legally open for snowmobiling. Now that plan came with some other BS but that's an example of an area previously closed opened up. And it happened because of the west coast SAWS rep and some others at the time getting involved.

Certainly an anomaly but it can happen. It happened because someone gave a shlt and tried. And if it can happen in California.........

If anyone is actually serious about this get in touch with me. We've got some things on the burner right now. Curmudgeons need not apply.

One thing I have found with the tree huggers is that once something begins to cost money they either fight it tooth and nail or drop it. We as sledders pay huge amounts of money to ride, between our machines and equipment, to our lodging meals and entertainment when we travel. The tree huggers on the other hand typically try to scrape by because they either do not have the money to spend or are saving for the newest tesla. So instead of staying in town they might stop at the gas station and purchase some essentials but after that they are swinging from there hammocks out in the woods. Once they come to realize just how much of the money we spend comes back and benefits them will they begin to realize just how much they are hurting themselves by trying to eliminate sledders. In the midwest we started seeing all these fat tire gangs popping up riding on our groomed snowmobile trails. It started to become a safety issue as a gaggle of fat tire bikers can take up a whole trail in no time. They were forced to purchase the winter use permit that sledders were required to have, pretty soon they had developed there own trail system that quickly went to hell after they realized just how much up keep it is to maintain a trail system.

I have not been on snowest in quite awhile. Land use was my thing. Lots of assumptions on this thread.

One of the biggest detriments to the sledding community, is there lack of cohesion. I saw this when I was on the saws board. IT was almost impossible to get the whole board to agree on one thing. I am seeing that here on this thread.

if you where to get a national advocate, they would have to be very thick skinned. Sledders are the best I have ever seen at cutting each other up, sometimes in jest, other times for real.

goridedoo said:

So.... discussion time. We continue to lose more and more land each year, and it SUCKS. The other side seems to have unlimited funds, organization, and burning desire to close as much land to sleds as possible. As sledders we have 2 of those things... kinda :face-icon-small-hap , MONEY and the burning desire to keep these areas open. There is a TON of money within this industry between the manufactures, aftermarket, and sledders themselves, and there are constantly land grabs that infuriate all of us, but theres a problem- these things happen and we don't know what to do. Some people send emails, makes calls, and locals go to meetings, but there are TONS of people who do nothing at all due to not knowing anything about these issues, or not knowing what TO DO. Its tough for a lot of us in the Midwest to do anything at all when we live 1,000 miles from where these things are going on.

So my question is WHAT CAN WE DO? I really feel like there needs to be organization at a higher level than just "Join the local club, we will put money towards fighting for our riding area" (join your local club tho, seriously. At the very least pay for a membership). I see there is a group AMPL- Advocates for Multi use of Public Lands based out of Jackson Hole... I think we need something like this on a National level that all sledders know about and can be members of. It would take some dedicated people (a lot smarter than me) to organize and run this... but it would be awesome if something like this could be organized and we could PAY 5-10 people to travel and do what ever needs to be done to keep our riding areas open. With over a million sleds registered in the US in 2017... you would think this would be possible. So at that, lets hear some thoughts

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Generally speaking, that sounds like a step in the right direction. National, or at least Regional societies with full time PAID members (very important), lawyers, the whole bit. The whole club thing is great....it helps with local stuff, it helps with trail projects/grooming and similar stuff. But land closures as a whole need way more firepower. We have nothing to compare with groups like Y2Y...which is very scary.

The problem is .... at least with the current model.....DO sledders really have a burning desire to keep stuff open? Some do....many others...? Ya we get a big social media reaction when something is about to close, but up until that point, it's been the same played out excuses for the 10 years I've been involved with a snowmobile club.

- Too lazy and/or cheap to join (this is explained in many complex fashions to not appear cheap)
- Too busy to come to meetings
- Don't need groomed trails so I don't want to pay
- I don't really ride the club areas much so I don't want to pay
- I helped the club build something 15 years ago why should I still have to pay
- I'll come to some meetings, but don't have time to do anything.
- Everyone who can find a way to skip a trail fee....does
- (new one) I ride a snowbike, so I don't have to join a snowmobile club

So....out of an area with 1,000 + sled users....you wind up with a club of 60-100 members. Out of 100 you get 20 +/- who will actually attend a meeting. Out of those 20 you will get 1-3 who would actually draft a somewhat meaningful and organized letter on behalf regarding a land use issue. Many clubs will get 0. Same story for every snowmobile club I've ever heard of/talked to. So 1 out of (3? 5? 10?) clubs might have enough organization, a strong enough community, and some good enough relationships with local forestry/shot callers to have a CHANCE at having some good influence. Hurtin

I put in LOTS of time with the local club in many ways, but it can be very discouraging at times. Straight goods.....the sled community is great for a lot of things....and this is not one of them. A few people try really hard, and most DGAF until it's a problem (I.E. too late).

So another thing on the "what's needed" list IMO....is a massive shift in attitude and involvement for a large percentage of riders. Like Big10 said, it's all great but the funding to get quality paid people is a huge challenge. Without manufacturer involvement, and with WELL over half of all riders not willing to pay dues of any type....what are you really going to get?

zecow224 said:

One thing I have found with the tree huggers is that once something begins to cost money they either fight it tooth and nail or drop it. We as sledders pay huge amounts of money to ride, between our machines and equipment, to our lodging meals and entertainment when we travel. The tree huggers on the other hand typically try to scrape by because they either do not have the money to spend or are saving for the newest tesla. So instead of staying in town they might stop at the gas station and purchase some essentials but after that they are swinging from there hammocks out in the woods. Once they come to realize just how much of the money we spend comes back and benefits them will they begin to realize just how much they are hurting themselves by trying to eliminate sledders.

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Unfortunately you have that backwards. If comes down to a money contest....sledders will lose against skiers/conservation groups every time. They are playing with international money....from corporations, societies, manufacturers, native bands, celebrities, you name it. We are playing with lunch money in comparison. Every heli/cat ski lodge in BC is pre-booked a year in advance $1,000 day...there are lots of rich skiers

Jaynelson said:

Unfortunately you have that backwards. If comes down to a money contest....sledders will lose against skiers/conservation groups every time. They are playing with international money....from corporations, societies, manufacturers, native bands, celebrities, you name it. We are playing with lunch money in comparison. Every heli/cat ski lodge in BC is pre-booked a year in advance $1,000 day...there are lots of rich skiers

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Winner winner chicken dinner.

This ain't the 60s with hippies living in vans begging for grilled cheese sandwiches in the parking lot of a dead concert with a save the whales t-shirt.

This is uppity ivy league graduates with politcal science/journalism/social justice degrees half the time living on family money that grows itself and making thousand dollar contributions to whatever patagonia tells them to. Heli-skiing trips to alaska, vacations in the alps........this is not your grandfather's hippy.

Seems like every time I swipe my credit card any more I’m asked if I want to round up to the nearest dollar to help some cause.

I was thinking that we need someone doing that with powersports dealers and any other vendors that are benefited by Snowmobiles/OHV’s.

You might be able to fund some of these ideas with a few of the newer ways to generate revenue on our side.

Jaynelson said:

Unfortunately you have that backwards. If comes down to a money contest....sledders will lose against skiers/conservation groups every time. They are playing with international money....from corporations, societies, manufacturers, native bands, celebrities, you name it. We are playing with lunch money in comparison. Every heli/cat ski lodge in BC is pre-booked a year in advance $1,000 day...there are lots of rich skiers

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It is even worse than that. The greenies have been able to tap publicly funded pools of money for lawsuits against us, in the name of animals and plants unable to sue us themselves. Yes, they are using our money to steal land from us...