What if you could breathe the air from your avy air bag?

motortech · Nov 30, 2009

Just thinking out loud here but has anyone ever thought of making an avy airbag with some sort of helmet mounted mouthpiece that you could breathe the air from the airbag with in the event that you did get buried with the pack on?

MARCUSO · Dec 1, 2009

The air from the Snowpulse is breathable, and it slowly deflates over time.

akstormin · Dec 1, 2009

According to the Snowpulse manual, once the bag is inflated it will slowly deflate over the next several minutes. So in THEORY it could provide some air, but more importantly maybe some space around your head. The space would be hugely important to help avoid or at least prolong the following scenario. Snow is about 70% air, meaning there is plenty of O2 to breathe. The problem is that when you exhale, the heat from your breath eventually forms an 'ice mask' around your head (not an actual mask, but an ice layer in the snow several inches from your mouth) and once the mask forms then the CO2 builds up in that area and you pass out from the lack of O2 and too much CO2and then well...
This is the concept that the Ava-lung system uses, you breath out through a tube that discharges behind you or at least away from your head thereby greatly delaying the formation of the 'ice mask' and increasing your survival time allowing people to come get you. So if the big orange bag around your head were to slowly deflate it could, in THEORY create some extra space to help avoid the ice mask formation. If someone has more info on this I'd love to hear it

SledsWest · Dec 1, 2009

Problem with the avalung for snowmobilers is that we all ride with helmets on. The avalung is pretty tough to get up inside of your helmet and then into your mouth. I wouldn't rely on that too much. Good concept of breathing through the air bag though, only prob though is that having a mouth piece in the helmet would get pretty annoying after a while when you don't need it. Figure out a way to deploy it into your mouth w/o having something sticking you in the mouth or face all day and it would be a better idea.

Ex-Member · Dec 1, 2009

This is one of the main reasons I went with the snowpulse pack. If the pack does fail to keep you above the snow, there's space around the head displacing the snow and it's filled with O2/N2.

Nitrogen, while it isn't toxic, is an inert gas. Rather breathe Nitrogen than CO2 in a situation like that, as CO2 triggers a psychological panic reflex where N2 does not. This was the idea behind a suicide machine a few years ago (Read "The Peaceful Pill").

06 RMK 900 · Dec 1, 2009

I was reading a thread about who have been cought in avys and was thinking the same thing.

My idea was what if you had a hose that ran into your pack and ran down along your arm are inside your coat sleave. Because I was told that you want to place your hands close to your face to create a bigger air space? I'm actually getting ready for my avy class in fargo today so I will learn more about that!

Funoutfitters.com · Dec 1, 2009

Those are all good ideas..Hopefully someone comes out with something that will definately work!

Josh Zieske

WARY · Dec 1, 2009

When we dig out our crash test dummies attached to avalanche air bags, the fully inflated bag makes it much easier to extract the dummy than a deflated air bag. The fully inflated air bags push an enormous amount of snow out of the way that would be on top of the victim's head if it were not for the bag being there. In the dense snow you find in the debris field after an avalanche you could be taking about 20 or 30 pounds of snow that is being pushed out of the way and held there by the fully inflated bag.

It is also much, much easier to dig with your shovel around a fully inflated avalanche air bag as the material is a slippery nylon that your shovel easily glides down the side of.

We also find that it is much easier to pull a dummy up and out of the snow when the air bag is fully inflated. There are more places to grab and pull. A deflated air bag does not give you any advantage when you are trying to pull someone from the snow.

As far as breathing air from the air bag goes, remember, if you are wearing an avalanche air bag your face is either on top of the snow or buried 6 to 8 inches down, according to our test results. There is more air and more looseness in the snow at these depths than there is say 8 feet down, so the theory is that you can begin to self-extricate (fight for the surface) as opposed to being completely trapped and encased lower in the snow, and as a result your need for supplemental breathing air is lessened.

SledsWest · Dec 1, 2009

Do you have any videos of your test dummies? I'd be interested to see that. Good info, thanks!

MARCUSO · Dec 1, 2009

WARI Avalanche Research said:
When we dig out our crash test dummies attached to avalanche air bags, the fully inflated bag makes it much easier to extract the dummy than a deflated air bag. The fully inflated air bags push an enormous amount of snow out of the way that would be on top of the victim's head if it were not for the bag being there. In the dense snow you find in the debris field after an avalanche you could be taking about 20 or 30 pounds of snow that is being pushed out of the way and held there by the fully inflated bag.

It is also much, much easier to dig with your shovel around a fully inflated avalanche air bag as the material is a slippery nylon that your shovel easily glides down the side of.

We also find that it is much easier to pull a dummy up and out of the snow when the air bag is fully inflated. There are more places to grab and pull. A deflated air bag does not give you any advantage when you are trying to pull someone from the snow.

As far as breathing air from the air bag goes, remember, if you are wearing an avalanche air bag your face is either on top of the snow or buried 6 to 8 inches down, according to our test results. There is more air and more looseness in the snow at these depths than there is say 8 feet down, so the theory is that you can begin to self-extricate (fight for the surface) as opposed to being completely trapped and encased lower in the snow, and as a result your need for supplemental breathing air is lessened.

So, in your unbiased opinion, you don't see any advantage at all to a deflating O2 bag? :face-icon-small-sho

I think that there are many advantages, as stated previously. That is the major reason I bought the Snowpulse.

heinracing · Dec 1, 2009

why not have some attachment the goes to the outlet of the bag and pipe it into the helmet like we do for a fresh intake kits on our race cars?

Trenchmaster · Dec 1, 2009

Mule said:
This is one of the main reasons I went with the snowpulse pack. If the pack does fail to keep you above the snow, there's space around the head displacing the snow and it's filled with O2/N2.

Nitrogen, while it isn't toxic, is an inert gas. Rather breathe Nitrogen than CO2 in a situation like that, as CO2 triggers a psychological panic reflex where N2 does not. This was the idea behind a suicide machine a few years ago (Read "The Peaceful Pill").

On the bold, you can breathe air which is 20% O2 + 80% N2 but you absolutely can not breathe nitrogen, take one breathe of pure nitrogen and your lungs will stop functioning. The ABS bags are filled with nitrogen when they deploy, so hopefully they stay inflated if you do happen to get buried. One of the Snowpulse selling features is that the bag will slowly deflate and provide breathable air under the snow if you get buried. That being said I own an ABS bag and hope I never have to use it.

tudizzle · Dec 2, 2009

If I am wearing an Air Bag and get caught in an avy and am still deep enough to even think about needing air to breath............I will be extremely pizzed. The whole point is to keep you above the snow or very near the surface?

Seems like this whole discussion should be moot.

mud99 · Dec 2, 2009

The avalung does exactly that, you can get them separate or pack integrated for around $100. It wouldn't replace an ABS pack, but it might help out a bit.

Mark

06 RMK 900 · Dec 2, 2009

Was at Mike Duffy's avy class last night and he was saying that BCA is coming out with and airbag/pack that is going to be around $499. Will be buying one next season.

WARY · Dec 3, 2009

Well, our opinion isn't unbiased, it's very biased.

After spending almost 10 years digging dummies with avalanche air bags out of avalanches, we don't see much need for an air bag to supply supplemental breathing air as the victim is on top of the snow or just under it.

And we think a deflating air bag might just cause the surrounding snow to fall in on the victim and bury them with more snow.

As stated, we also find that it is MUCH easier to dig out a test dummy that has a fully inflated avalanche air bag as opposed to a deflated air bag.

Another reason you want a fully inflated air bag is that your friends will be able to find you more quickly if the visual target is larger.

The final reason you want a fully inflated avalanche air bag after an avalanche is that you still have to get out of the mountains and a deflated air bag will be worthless.

But again, that's just our opinion.

RMX · Dec 4, 2009

I have to AGREE with wari. An airbags job is to keep you on top of the snow!!!
If it stays inflated it will help you far more than if it deflates.

If anyone has bought a airbag that is suppose to deflate and suppy them with air to breath while in their snow tomb. Good luck with that.

Yes, an ABS canister has nitrogen in it, but all airbags have a venturi system drawing in outside air as they fill up. So an ABS airbag is not filled with pure nitrogen. The air we breath is 76% nitrogen, 23% oxygen, 1% mixed.
RMX

MARCUSO · Dec 4, 2009

It's not like it deflates in 2 minutes. Mine still had pressure after 10 minutes... and deflates more as time goes by.
How does this venturi system work when it's behind closed zippers in a compartment?

If you are dumped into a terrain trap, a the bottom of a dip in a hill and 6 feet of snow piles onto you, (which no airbag would float you). I bet you would be glad if there is something breathable. If you think the snow is gonna collapse on you when the bag deflates, that would mean your rescuers are close, because the snow is set up like a streetside windrow.

PalousePoo · Dec 10, 2009

who knows if the new BCA 30 bag deflates or stays inflated?

PRYTYBOY · Dec 15, 2009

I would would be very interested to hear wari's opinion and research results on the snowpulse after they have tested them on dummies several times this year. Hey wari, are you going to be testing the snowpulse this year?

What if you could breathe the air from your avy air bag?

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