Do shocks really matter on a mountain sled?

RPS said:

“Gone are the days where the concept of a bunch of nerdy engineers come up with information on a computer generated dyno spec sheet”

well sorry to break this to the world but yes for very good reason engineers are typically very involved with many facets of shock design from modeling, analysis and good old hours of run time on a shock dynometer. Not only do we do extensive lab work then comes field work where you need to understand things like displacement, velocities amongst what could be several other key measurements that you might feel the need to record. Once this is done the “Nerds” typically head back to the dyno lab and study multiple runs in fact it could be a hundred runs depending on what the scenario might be. These are very important steps and yes they’re typically done by a very smart team of individuals.<O></O>

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Isn't this taken out of context? The answer Tom gave was refering to the base settings the shocks are set up with as they are sold the customer. He was just saying that customer/testers/racers feedback is actually being used to better the base settings of the shocks are they are sold to the end user. At least that's how I read it :face-icon-small-con

Boy there is a lot of information floating around in here. I guess that's what happens when a few are trying to educate the mininformed:face-icon-small-con, the uninformed:face-icon-small-sho, and the people who just don't know s**t :doh:! Just being funny, nobody take it personally haha.

A few points I have caught along the way and my observations:

1. "Cheap shocks will last 5000miles without needing service" So will an aftermarket one, but neither one will work worth a dang at that point. Shock service intervals are going to depend on the rider and the terrain. The more cycles in a given time or faster cycles are going to break the oil down. A high end shock is going to experience less fade as it heats up and remain more consistent.

2. "Elevation and temperature affect an air shock, but not a coil over" Fox recommends that you set your pressure in the environment you will be riding in without weight on the shock. I would think that as long as you stop and set them on the mountain instead of a warm shop at home this isn't an issue. Temperature might not affect a spring but it does affect the shock, regardless of whether it is an airshock or a coil over. The colder it is, the more resistance the oil is going to have flowing through the valving. I can ride my race quad when it is 70 degrees and ride it again at 40 degrees and it is noticably stiffer at 40 until the suspension heats up. I've never rode my sled back to back in -10 and 30 degree weather but I bet the results are similar.

3. "Steel springs sack out and take a set" Yes they do. You have to readjust the preload once in a while to maintain the ride height you want. If you want to avoid this then spend the money for some TI springs. You have to check an airshock a little more often to monitor your pressures once you know where you want to be, but all it takes is a pump instead of one person on the sled and one with a tape measure every time.

4. "You can't adjust the crossover points on an airshock" This is pretty tough to do. I think the dual rate air chambers are better for this, but not the same as a solid transition point. On the Raptors, I am guessing they rely on the wind of the spring to adjust where the spring rate crossover points are. I prefer having an adjustable crossover point with either spacers or threaded collars.

5. "I replaced my airshocks with coilovers and they are way better" I have no doubts about this. Mostly because, as Tom said, most of the airshocks being replaced are stock components that are not set up very well from the OEMs. Any aftermarket shock set you buy whether they are air or coils should be leaps and bounds better than a stock air shock or coilover. Part of the cost you are paying is for valving and spring rates that are setup for YOU. Not Joe Public. If you compare an airshock and an coilover that are in the same price range they are going to perform similarly as long as whoever is setting them up knows what they are doing. I rode my pro-lite with the stock oem float 3s on it the first day just to try them. I had already bought a set of Float X evols for it and I put them on the second day and guess what? They were leaps and bounds better right off the bat without messing with too many of the adjustments because the setup was for ME. The newer air shocks also have higher volume chambers so the progression isn't as bad as the older generations.

Now with all that being said, do I have a bias toward air shocks or coil overs? No. They both have their good and bad points. Just depends on what features and ajustments you want. I do like the floats on my sled so I can make adjustments quick based on snow conditions of the day and the steep progression of the air works for me since I am a big guy. I have coilovers on my race quads and like not having to check the pressures in them every day when I ride them, and I can adjust my front end cornering stiffness a little better with the springs and crossovers.

Now that ever ones mind is thinking how about the condensation that occurs inside the chamber as temps increase and decrease. When temps are sub zero and the condensation freezes how does that effect the movement of the shock.

DPG

Deep Powder Guy said:

Now that ever ones mind is thinking how about the condensation that occurs inside the chamber as temps increase and decrease. When temps are sub zero and the condensation freezes how does that effect the movement of the shock.

DPG

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the shock obviously still cycles but ideally i don't think water and Fox Float Fluid are meant to be mixed

Again I'm a customer of both Tom and RPS. I have NEVER had an air shock be effected as much as RPS states from a temp change. I set them fully extended on the hill, usually at about 25F. Seem to work fine from 0F to 35F. Certainly never had a ride height change of even a couple inches.

Reeb said:

Isn't this taken out of context? The answer Tom gave was refering to the base settings the shocks are set up with as they are sold the customer. He was just saying that customer/testers/racers feedback is actually being used to better the base settings of the shocks are they are sold to the end user. At least that's how I read it :face-icon-small-con

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You make some good points. The air spring will never go soft and stays consistent unlike a coil that degrades from day one. Obviously there are pros and cons on both shocks however My re -valved E vol with extra volume shox is super plush up top with unlimited adjustable air spring rates.. And you can alter where the spring rate change is within the stroke by altering the E- Vol pressures.

RPS said:

Guys I would like to set a couple things straight here with Tom’s poor information and obvious one sided views ..? Tom says,
My response;
Jake, Thanks for your input, and your evaluation of my information. Your comments appear to be a little lopsided though, as you promote your product as well. Misinterpreting information does not make your information factual though.

Let's review:

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“there is no way a triple rate spring can cover the rate or range of an air chamber, single or dual chamber” well that simply isn’t true rate is rate no matter if it’s spring rate or air spring rate you could match the curves if that’s what you set out to do. Now with that being said that’s one of the biggest down falls with a single chamber air shock and it’s not just a Fox issue they all have it even ours did. The volume is so small in the envelope that you have to work in (snowmobile) that the rate gets so flippen progressive that you can’t deal with the loads that are generated and the shocks basically start to lock up (get very stiff) prior to using all the travel. Now if you set them up to not get insanely stiff at jounce to help control excess body roll.

My response; Didn't you just state more or less what I said? l do apologize for not stating spring force, so there is not any confusion. Didn't you state "that the rate gets so flippen progressive that you can't deal with the loads" (read; force) Specifically I was referencing the ability to change the air pressure settings, easily on the trail. On the trail the spring force can be changed to = up to 2900 lbs. of force, if desired.
What is your range of your spring force on your triple rate spring? Can you build 1 spring that would cover 80-625 lbs.?
<O</O
[/QUOTE] Next Tom mentions that “Gone are the days where the concept of a bunch of nerdy engineers come up with information on a computer generated dyno spec sheet” well sorry to break this to the world but yes for very good reason engineers are typically very involved with many facets of shock design from modeling, analysis and good old hours of run time on a shock dynometer.
My response;
Specifically I was referencing the way Fox does business, not yours, as I do not have any knowledge of how your business is run.
In 2005 4 engineers from Fox came up to Sierra City to ride snowmobiles, and evaluate some of the complaints we were generating in regards to Float shocks. (They were shocked on what they discovered in the real world vs. their laboratory environment, and other motorized crossover information they were using. In their snowmobile division, after they have created new parts, new valve specs, whatever, it is always followed up with lengthy in field testing. They use both world class riders, racers, as well as there own testing to confirm what their expensive equipment generates for information. That is what I was referring to.


[/QUOTE] Continuing on, if all these changes that you talk about are such game changers and I’m sure they are “For this season the new standard Float 3 is every bit as good as a year or 2 old R Evol type shock, right out of the box. Why? Because of the continuing use of new technology, including the Kashima coat air sleeves, as well design changes in pistons, the use of bleed shims, lower negative spring rate springs, and new valve codes” why is it that when I pulled my 2014 XF 8000 SP in the shop this morning after sitting outside overnight was the front bumper sitting 5-6 inches lower to the ground until it warmed up in the shop for several hours?
My response;
A more important question to you; if you have so many issues and complaints about the Float shock product; why was it even on your sled in the first place? And the second question would be; if you have resolved all of the issues by installing Raptors, then who cares what issues might arise from air shocks, as these would become someone else's problems, not yours ?


[/QUOTE So this one strikes a nerve, you say “Where as any coil over shock starts to see a loss in performance in 200 miles, and really needs to be serviced between 5-700 miles” well I would like to know where you get your information from on this one? The “nerds” have tested shocks with a significant more amount of miles on them than what you’re portraying here on one of those old shock dynometers and the graphs lay over the top of each other and show little to no change in stiffness. Let’s face it if a half million dollar piece of equipment can’t pick up a change in stiffness I think it’s safe to say that most human beings (me included) wouldn’t feel the difference either there for feeling a performance loss in 200 miles is bogus.<O></O>
My response
Specifically I was referring to was the oil. Adding anything foreign to the oil can and will change the viscosity. And changing the viscosity will change the performance of the shock, even in 200 miles. Specifically contamination, including water. Because we do a large volume of service on shocks, we see the damage to not only the oil, but when running the shocks too long between service intervals, sometimes it starts to corrode the shims themselves. On some oem type shocks, this oil looks like the foam on a root beer float. Pushing foamed up oil through your shim stack does affect performance. Oil contamination happens on any coil over type shock. It takes longer to contaminate on an air shock. And you won't find water or other contamination in a laboratory, cycling your shock through on a dyno, or other sophisticated equipment. In California, there are several places that can confirm this testing if you would like to pursue the analysis.

<O</O
[/QUOTE]The main take away here is that we want enthusiast to get the correct information and not to be force feed one sided views from someone that seems to be more interested in self-promotion than factual information. We can appreciate that people have different tastes in shock technologies and we see it very much like the difference between given vehicles it doesn’t mean that one is more right than the other and that’s up to the customer to decipher as to which technology makes the most sense for his application. Thanks, RPS <O></O>
My response;
I do see the same self promotion from you as well as your vendors, and done the right way it can be a good thing.
Too often though your vendor feels the need to degrade product he is not selling; to continually exaggerate to help sell your product. Sometimes I overlook it. On a quote from above, I responded to an above response from one of your vendors, selling your product. Degrading some one else's product, for the benefit of selling your product. Why?
In the end why not try to sell on the merits of your product, rather then on the negatives of your competitor? Doesn't that make it fair for everyone?

Guys, there’s information on here that some may not totally understand and in the event that you would like to please contact us at info@raptorshocks.com and we will help you understand any of the comments that have been made here. We have always taken the high road on explaining the differences between our products along with our competitions products. We feel that our products have always spoken for themselves and we have no reason to mislead our customers in any way. Our feedback is based on data collected with specific instruments to get key metrics along with feedback from our extensive field testing, customer accounts and our strategic partners that rely on our shocks to enhance their products in every way. I’m quite sure that any of our partners will tell you that we run this organization with the utmost in integrity and we’ve helped them in ways other company’s simply could not. I won’t try interpret all your comments Tom but I will however speak to specific questions that you have asked. I don’t feel this is the place to continue to air our laundry there for I will contact you next week as I have in the past and we can hopefully agree to disagree at some level.
<O</O
Specifically I was referencing the ability to change the air pressure settings, easily on the trail. On the trail the spring force can be changed to = up to 2900 lbs. of force, if desired.
What is your range of your spring force on your triple rate spring? Can you build 1 spring that would cover 80-625 lbs.? <O></O>
The first thing we need to get straight is if you’re talking about rate or load (force)? Huge difference… If you’re talking about load yep no problem we’re not that far off of that right now and it’s very easy to achieve with springs. <O></O>
Now if you’re talking about rate that’s a huge change in rate and it would be difficult to package a spring on the front of a snowmobile and a spring like this would be relatively stiff for most cars…<O></O>
Put into perspective: A 2014 Pro rmk has (approx)6.0 inches of shock travel and has a 100lb per inch spring and let’s just say it has no preload it would have 600lbs of load ( per ski) when the shock was fully bottomed out. Now based on your 2900lbs of force (load) you would need a 500lb per inch spring to achieve a 3000lb force (load) when fully bottomed out. It’s very easy to notice the difference between a 100lb rate spring and a 110lb rate spring so going to something that is in the realm of 5 times stiffer is basically off the chart. Now let’s be clear we know that an air shock gets progressively stiffer so it does not start at a 500lb rate but at some point in the travel based on your numbers it must get close..? <O></O>

A more important question to you; if you have so many issues and complaints about the Float shock product; why was it even on your sled in the first place? And the second question would be; if you have resolved all of the issues by installing Raptors, then who cares what issues might arise from air shocks, as these would become someone else's problems, not yours ?<O></O>

Just to set the record straight it was 25 below zero when I brought my sled in from outside now this may have been an unfair observation but I was simply trying to make the point that temperature is a moving target but there’s days like this that the temp inside that shock could change up to 100 degrees. The reason we test everyone else’s product is pretty straight forward, one it was my job to benchmark all shock manufactures product back in the day and two because we take every advantage we can get to understand where our competition is… Not only do we test others shocks we also spend time on systems just like your air ride conversion along with ez ryde, Timbersled, Holz, Kmod,fast and Alternative Impacts Ti skid. I have personally been on every one of these systems and have talked to every one of the owners at some point or another. <O></O>
<O> </O>
I do see the same self promotion from you as well as your vendors, and done the right way it can be a good thing.
Too often though your vendor feels the need to degrade product he is not selling; to continually exaggerate to help sell your product. Sometimes I overlook it. On a quote from above, I responded to an above response from one of your vendors, selling your product. Degrading some one else's product, for the benefit of selling your product. Why?
In the end why not try to sell on the merits of your product, rather then on the negatives of your competitor? Doesn't that make it fair for everyone?<O></O>
I can’t speak for our dealers-distributers we don’t give them a manual on how to reference our products that’s totally up to them but I have never seen any post where they take a hard stance and totally throw another shock supplier under the bus…? I see a lot of legit numbers on weight and I see them giving their honest opinion so not saying it doesn’t happen I just don’t police the forums like maybe I should.? I can tell you that we have some awesome partners and they do a great job for us and we give them full access to all of our resources and many of them take full advantage of it and their products are better for it. <O></O>
Anyways hope this helps Tom and I will try and contact you next week so we can discuss in further detail and again anyone with questions please contact me at the shop. Thanks, RPS

I have yet to find a vendor that does not like to sell product. Shocks , Clutch Kits, Skids , Tracks it does not matter....All consumers myself included have high expectations we want to open the box install the part and expect the part to work as advertised. The trouble with shocks is there are so many variables the vendors often times rely on what the consumer tells them. The vendor builds the shock according to what they were told only to get a call by the consumer unsatisfied with there purchase. Shocks are tricky the consumer can't in most cases service them on there own to dial them in . The consumer has the option to send them back to the vendor for more tuning but what a huge hassle. The vendor already has your money and is more than happy to assist you but there limited by what they can do over the phone. Consumer beware shocks are tricky.

DPG

Deep Powder Guy said:

I have yet to find a vendor that does not like to sell product. Shocks , Clutch Kits, Skids , Tracks it does not matter....All consumers myself included have high expectations we want to open the box install the part and expect the part to work as advertised. The trouble with shocks is there are so many variables the vendors often times rely on what the consumer tells them. The vendor builds the shock according to what they were told only to get a call by the consumer unsatisfied with there purchase. Shocks are tricky the consumer can't in most cases service them on there own to dial them in . The consumer has the option to send them back to the vendor for more tuning but what a huge hassle. The vendor already has your money and is more than happy to assist you but there limited by what they can do over the phone. Consumer beware shocks are tricky.

DPG

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Good info. There are advantages for both Shoxs. One fact is the E vol R weighed 3.5 lbs and raptor was 6.5 lbs. Dan indicated if I installed Ti springs the Raptor will drop 1/2 lb. simply for the consistency that may be warranted, we know steel spring degrade from ride one. I do like the Raptors adjustable compression and wish The R,s would work on that adjustability for the newer R,s. I had my newly Revalved R,s that Tom set up one short test ride and they seam to be spot on and suck shutter bumps effortlessly, body roll was perfect allowing quick edging without compromising the bottom resistance,pretty happy with the build.They are both Top dog with pro/cons for both.Weight was my main objective on my Mt Mod. I did get a chance to ride a sled with Raptors and a very nice ride.mentioned above are the pro/cons of each. Its good for us to have two great options and two respectable dealers.

The truth of the matter is that it all comes down to a purpose driven decision for each individual and their goal at hand. If your looking for evacuating every possible ounce, then go air, but your going to have to get the bottom shelf. As I said the top shelf air shocks with the dual chamber adjustments are not much if any lighter than coils, and if you go Ti your dumping more $ but your right there as far as weight goes. If its the "ride" your looking for I just don't think you can beat coil. I understand tom and others have a different opinion on that and, hey..their entitled to that.. its what makes the world go round. Everyone who knows me can tell you what a weight freak im am, its what i do, but yet I have coils although Ti all the way around, but to me its simply where I chose to be. Really is to me that I have never liked the pogo stick feel of the the airs, but maybe its due to never having a properly set up system? This thread seems to be all about just "more of the same".... Cheers!

Dan

Are Raptors really 6.5 lbs a piece, that doesn't sound right? I have a set of 16.5" Ohlins with reservoirs and AC HCR Ti. springs for my Nytro and they only weigh 4.5 lbs ea.

SNWMBL said:

Are Raptors really 6.5 lbs a piece, that doesn't sound right? I have a set of 16.5" Ohlins with reservoirs and AC HCR Ti. springs for my Nytro and they only weigh 4.5 lbs ea.

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4.5lbs for the IFS shocks

alt said:

4.5lbs for the IFS shocks

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Heres the weight post i was referring to., claims were 5 not 6 lbs more My mistake, I know just what Dans talking about, The Floats even two years ago were not up to par, The new internals are a totally different shox.Would be cool for Dan to have a new set of R,s to compare...........................................Posted 07 March 2013 - 10:18 PM
Fred not sure how? My figures would come up with at the most 2.78lbs more total. Thats with the lightest IFS fox float and comparing it to the Raptor with a steel spring. If you got the ti springs it would be even less than that, but i dont off hand remember what you did for springs. Sorry im confused. Thanks!
Dan

fredw, on 07 Mar 2013 - 3:31 PM, said:
Just bough a set of raptors for the front, they weighted 5 lbs more than fox air


fredw, on 07 Mar 2013 - 3:31 PM, said:
Just bough a set of raptors for the front, they weighted 5 lbs more than fox air.......................

moly may said:

LOL! Thats what i say too but in my case its just because i cant afford them at least for now

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LOL, me three, for the same reason. lol I've got to replace my rear shock in my summit but only because its completely sacked out.

I often wonder how much better my sleds would perform if I knew how to set up my suspension properly.

For heavier riders, I think good shocks make more of a difference.

After spending tens of thousands of dollars on aftermarket shocks in the last 4 years (some of the money was refunded, to be fair), I can say the following:

I tried every brand except Exit, so cannot comment on those.

Almost EVERY brand was not set up correctly and/or even tested before being sold to me.

I spent a TON of money sending shocks back and forth, having them revalved, re-setup, and they were never right.

Raptors were not right, specifically the rear track shock, but it was end of season, I sold the sled and after spending a ton of time testing other brands on the sled, I was DONE, so I did not even talk to Jake about it. I am sure he would have addressed the issue, he is VERY knowledgeable about shocks, his Team rider here in McCall had the same complaint that I did about it, we talked and the guy said that the new valving was dialed. (This was in 2015 when I bought the shocks.) A bud who bought the same Raptors this year had the old valving, it didn't work well for him.

When it comes to aftermarket shocks. (And parts in general.):

90% of guys believe that if they paid for good shocks, they got them. If they look good on the sled, they are happy.

The same 90% have no clue if the shocks are better than stock or not.

The same 90% also have no clue as how to adjust those shocks, or what the adjustments even mean.

Everyone rides different. Different terrain, different styles. For example, I can ride a shXXtty Summit X shock through deep bumps at speed with minimal bottoming, using my legs to suck up the big bumps, and float across the trail.

Somebody riding sit-down style cannot get the same results.

After riding with a lot of folks from around the country over the last few years, I realized that a lot of the guys on here who act like they are experts are NOT.

So when a shock manufacturer tries to sell shocks to someone, they have a tough job. It takes testing and a lot of hard work to get a good setup, then it has to be tailored to the rider.

Personally, I am checking a 175 Summit for deep days where shocks have little matter, and a Freeride 154 for less deep and spring riding where shocks do matter. They are horribly setup from BRP, but they are rebuildable and revalveable. The extra cost of a Freeride over a Summit is better than paying for a Summit and then a ton of cash for aftermarket that will need a ton of tweaking to be right.

Chris

Just revalve the stock summit shocks, big difference, especially on a whooped out trail. Enzo did mine.


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Suspension and set up is everything on a sled... It's the difference in pull over resistance, balance, trenching etc. raptors weigh in at 5.0 lbs a pop the are ultra responsive. You can literally feel every click on them when adjusting.... FYI they have some new stuff in the works...