LOW IDLE AFTER INSTALLING V-FORCE-3R REEDS, ANYONE ELSE??

Sheetmetalfab · Jan 1, 2015

Has anybody else had low idle issues after installing the vforce 3r?
Me and my brother both have 11 pro rmks and experienced low and hunting idle.
Crank it up and will idle at 3k
Slowly back down and it dies.

damx · Jan 1, 2015

Yes I had the same question with the last 1/4". Just push them in. Also for the low rpm.after I did my reeds I had to have my tps set for some reason. Would start and then die, unless I gave it gas. After tps was set.all was good.

Sheetmetalfab · Jan 2, 2015

damx said:
Yes I had the same question with the last 1/4". Just push them in. Also for the low rpm.after I did my reeds I had to have my tps set for some reason. Would start and then die, unless I gave it gas. After tps was set.all was good.

What year sled?

My brother put the v force on his spare 12 and it idles great.....

damx · Jan 2, 2015

Mine is a 14. My buddy did a 14 also. He had no problems. Maybe I bumped something when I was doing it.

xTonyCRx · Jan 2, 2015

My 12 is doing the same after filter, pistons and reeds. I haven't had a chance to run it yet but I'm hoping It is the assembly oil I used.

geo · Jan 2, 2015

Funny how things come up on the 'net.

I put my 3R's in after 1.5 rides (during the warm spell). Only thing I did at the time. fired it up and idled 200ish lower than normal and in reverse would make the lights flicker badly.
Just a few weeks before this I installed new injectors because of a mistake on my part. Part of the process for me was to check TPS voltage while running with PCV installed and 'putor (this has been my base check for me since '13 and is reference for me). It was the same at that time as '13 so good enough.

First thing I checked (after all the normal stuff) on the lower idle thing was the TPS in the same manner as a few weeks previous and it was still the same.??? So, even though I'm sure a tweek would have changed it I decided not to.
Instead, I leaned out, on the PCV at 0% and 2% at idle. (+1 to -3 on mine) and idle came up. I blip blipped it and tweeked abit more out just above idle and it sounded better (that's and ear thing I trust) than it had before with stock reeds (second set and also showing signs of wear at the tips).
I took the PCV off and reinstalled the boony box, set the 0 to 10% to -3 below 2500 and have left it there with stable idle since.

To continue to the present, this summer I parked the SLP pipe set and installed a Aaen pipe and can and modified the can abit for personal fit so this is an apples to oranges comparison.
On the first rides (stock reeds) it felt a bit lean in spots so I added in field to be safe but I wouldn't call it tuning.
When I got back out with the 3R's it was very rich in the mid, heavy throttle. Had me concerned but I tweeked and I mean quite a bit. I've dropped 10 to 14% in much of the mid and still feel a bit more can be removed. Work in progress.

This has made me think about it more than once. I think the 3R's are a stiffer reed but that's just my opinion.
It feels like it with the finger first off. Secondly past has shown stiffer reeds give better flow in the higher rpm with a sacrifice at lower rpm flow (this doesn't necessarily mean less power if fuel is correct) and DTR showed this when they tested them.
Thirdly (and the one that relaxed me lol) one thing that stuck in my mind from the DTR review was when Mr. DTR said they "removed the heavy fuel flow in the midrange wide open throttle positions" when tested with the '13 'putor. It's shown on their dyno chart too.
I've never thought my '13 was rich there by any means and have run for a couple of seasons with a fair bit of fuel added there for my set-up. Now with the 3R's I'm reducing fuel in that area too on my sled and I like a richer set-up than most.

Just thought I'd add my 2 cents.

steepndeep800 · Jan 4, 2015

Geo

So what I just took from this is you feel like you can reduce the fuel settings mid range to wide open when going from stock reeds to the 3r's?
I have a Carl's cycle ported motor and I just did a new top end on the sled and put in the new 3r reeds. I was actually worried that I may need to add fuel to my pcv map.
So on dynotech he actually had to cut fuel when putting in the reeds to gain power?
Any more info and insight you have would be appreciated!
Thanks

Sheetmetalfab · Jan 4, 2015

geo said:
Funny how things come up on the 'net.

I put my 3R's in after 1.5 rides (during the warm spell). Only thing I did at the time. fired it up and idled 200ish lower than normal and in reverse would make the lights flicker badly.
Just a few weeks before this I installed new injectors because of a mistake on my part. Part of the process for me was to check TPS voltage while running with PCV installed and 'putor (this has been my base check for me since '13 and is reference for me). It was the same at that time as '13 so good enough.

First thing I checked (after all the normal stuff) on the lower idle thing was the TPS in the same manner as a few weeks previous and it was still the same.??? So, even though I'm sure a tweek would have changed it I decided not to.
Instead, I leaned out, on the PCV at 0% and 2% at idle. (+1 to -3 on mine) and idle came up. I blip blipped it and tweeked abit more out just above idle and it sounded better (that's and ear thing I trust) than it had before with stock reeds (second set and also showing signs of wear at the tips).
I took the PCV off and reinstalled the boony box, set the 0 to 10% to -3 below 2500 and have left it there with stable idle since.

To continue to the present, this summer I parked the SLP pipe set and installed a Aaen pipe and can and modified the can abit for personal fit so this is an apples to oranges comparison.
On the first rides (stock reeds) it felt a bit lean in spots so I added in field to be safe but I wouldn't call it tuning.
When I got back out with the 3R's it was very rich in the mid, heavy throttle. Had me concerned but I tweeked and I mean quite a bit. I've dropped 10 to 14% in much of the mid and still feel a bit more can be removed. Work in progress.

This has made me think about it more than once. I think the 3R's are a stiffer reed but that's just my opinion.
It feels like it with the finger first off. Secondly past has shown stiffer reeds give better flow in the higher rpm with a sacrifice at lower rpm flow (this doesn't necessarily mean less power if fuel is correct) and DTR showed this when they tested them.
Thirdly (and the one that relaxed me lol) one thing that stuck in my mind from the DTR review was when Mr. DTR said they "removed the heavy fuel flow in the midrange wide open throttle positions" when tested with the '13 'putor. It's shown on their dyno chart too.
I've never thought my '13 was rich there by any means and have run for a couple of seasons with a fair bit of fuel added there for my set-up. Now with the 3R's I'm reducing fuel in that area too on my sled and I like a richer set-up than most.

Just thought I'd add my 2 cents.

Geo.
the tps base setting is correct.
using the idle adjustment screw i turned the idle up. Blipping the throttle between adjustments.
The rpms did not change until i got to high enough to make it idle at 2500-2700.
Tried with the pcv adding and removing fuel in that range up to and down to 10% each way with no change in the idle whatsoever.

Of course with the idle that high there is no chance of using reverse.
Rode the sled for a day and runs great except for the idle issue.
On the plus side the hand warmers work great when its idling at 2500

Thinking the reeds may not be worth the trouble.
Semi stumped at this point.

geo · Jan 5, 2015

SMF

No two modified sleds are the same so remember apples to oranges but that's weird in itself.
I've always assumed using the idle adj. screw is a no no on this system. Reason for that thought is procedure. Base setting, then idle setting and final WFO checks for TPS voltage. Seems to me if you change the idle screw you have to start all over, including sync to PCV or boony box.
My sled came set very very slightly below recommended voltage. Was told this would make me lean all the way through with the map provided so I just used a slightly richer map, all the way through, and been good (why I used to be a +1 at idle before).
I would think if you opened the throttle valves more with the idle screw it would richen your map all the way through (because TPS voltage is now higher at idle and all the way through) on it's own (opposite of what I had to do).

On my sled at about -6 it started to indicate to lean at idle (bong de bong de bong lol) and -7 dropped a bit in rpm and started to hang high in rpm with a blip. At the other end, by the time I was at +5 my gauge would go out and the sled would eventually die from being too rich.

The small changes you do at low throttle, low rpm (like idle) has a greater effect than other positions because your injector is activated for so little time. The Poo's injector position allows a little less fuel use compared to throttle body injection and doesn't get much chance to puddle in the crankcase.
I'm more familiar fooling around with Cat's (throttle body injection) lol. If you take a Cat to +6 or7 at idle it will die almost instantly and you will be pulling with the throttle wide open to get it started. Take it the other way and you will never get it started without applying the right amount of thumb.

I tend to agree with you that the 3r's are not an eye opener when it comes to the seat of the pants. It would be hard to feel that slight extra HP anyway but the dyno shows,,,, and it all adds up in the end, right lol.
I like to do things one at a time so I waited to install the 3R's. I'm surprised what I had to do but it is running very well. I think the biggest benefit to me will be fuel mileage lol and I maybe feel a bit more crispy now.

tinkerjohnson · Jan 7, 2015

Reeds

I have a 13 with the exact same problem no idle since I put in 3r reeds, hit and miss sometimes it will for a min other not at all I pull fuel and it will idle then the next time no idle agin I have been pulling my hair out and I also had to take fuel out in the mid range on my map like Geo was saying it runs really good but the idle issue is pissing me off

polarisperformance · Jan 7, 2015

I just install vforce 3r in my SBA 2011, I am waiting for my new exhaust to try it (my stock one is broken) I will post my result soon.

BILTIT · Jan 7, 2015

I have noticed my idle just a tad low possibly. My gauge will flicker sometimes. I will try adjusting the PCV numbers and see if that helps (TPS has been set already).

Sheetmetalfab · Jan 7, 2015

geo said:
SMF

No two modified sleds are the same so remember apples to oranges but that's weird in itself.
I've always assumed using the idle adj. screw is a no no on this system. Reason for that thought is procedure. Base setting, then idle setting and final WFO checks for TPS voltage. Seems to me if you change the idle screw you have to start all over, including sync to PCV or boony box.
My sled came set very very slightly below recommended voltage. Was told this would make me lean all the way through with the map provided so I just used a slightly richer map, all the way through, and been good (why I used to be a +1 at idle before).
I would think if you opened the throttle valves more with the idle screw it would richen your map all the way through (because TPS voltage is now higher at idle and all the way through) on it's own (opposite of what I had to do).

On my sled at about -6 it started to indicate to lean at idle (bong de bong de bong lol) and -7 dropped a bit in rpm and started to hang high in rpm with a blip. At the other end, by the time I was at +5 my gauge would go out and the sled would eventually die from being too rich.

The small changes you do at low throttle, low rpm (like idle) has a greater effect than other positions because your injector is activated for so little time. The Poo's injector position allows a little less fuel use compared to throttle body injection and doesn't get much chance to puddle in the crankcase.
I'm more familiar fooling around with Cat's (throttle body injection) lol. If you take a Cat to +6 or7 at idle it will die almost instantly and you will be pulling with the throttle wide open to get it started. Take it the other way and you will never get it started without applying the right amount of thumb.

I tend to agree with you that the 3r's are not an eye opener when it comes to the seat of the pants. It would be hard to feel that slight extra HP anyway but the dyno shows,,,, and it all adds up in the end, right lol.
I like to do things one at a time so I waited to install the 3R's. I'm surprised what I had to do but it is running very well. I think the biggest benefit to me will be fuel mileage lol and I maybe feel a bit more crispy now.

I always understood the tps as being an adjustable resistor.
Base setting being critical and idle setting being a value shown when idle is to spec.
The reading continues to climb as the throttle plates are opened.
The idle setting shouldnt affect how the sled runs after the throttle is touched.
Or am i way off?

geo · Jan 7, 2015

I may be way off here too, but if you change the throttle plate stop to open more (for attempt at higher idle) it will change the voltage reading at idle to higher unless you readjust the TPS for the new throttle plate location.
Does this mean the 'putor is spitting out fuel-timing for 2% throttle position at idle because of voltage signal (just thinking out loud lol) and then all the way through?
Only thing the 'putor sees is the voltage to determine what it thinks is the throttle position.

So if you readjust that idle voltage to the new plate location, wouldn't the base setting come in at a lower voltage because the plate (hence TPS) needs to return more to get to fully closed?

Base, then wfo, then idle and they all have stops with only the base setting non-adjustable??
If I was starting blind with a set of throttle bodies on the bench. First I would sync them with some wire and the throttle stop screw, then back off the throttle stop screw and set base voltage with the TPS, then adjust WFO voltage with that screw stop, then get to recommended idle voltage using the idle stop screw.
I've read about setting TPS to idle setting but always thought it was not the method I would take. I do use it as a reference to see if mine has changed in the last three years but it has not.

Like I said I always assumed it was a no no for those reasons. I know the Poo is much more sensitive to this setting than a throttle body injection.
It may be interesting to see voltage changes in relation to throttle position on according to a PCV screen. But mine is idling fine now at -3.

gunnerthesnowman · Jan 7, 2015

https://www.facebook.com/1480243852...830.1480243852244228/1524342267834386/?type=1

geo · Jan 7, 2015

That`s a good mechanical basic. I used 1211bond on the gaskets.

Sheetmetalfab · Jan 7, 2015

So.
According to my supplier.
Vforce is testing some faulty reeds and there seems to be some sets that are good and others that are having problems.
There is around 5-7 sets i know of having the same issues.

My bolts are tight and the flange is tight also.

tinkerjohnson · Jan 8, 2015

Sheetmetalfab said:
So.
According to my supplier.
Vforce is testing some faulty reeds and there seems to be some sets that are good and others that are having problems.
There is around 5-7 sets i know of having the same issues.

My bolts are tight and the flange is tight also.

So are they gonna replace faulty ones

Sheetmetalfab · Jan 8, 2015

tinkerjohnson said:
So are they gonna replace faulty ones

Still working on a refund or replace with a tested good set.
I dont want more junk.

Put stock reeds back in my brothers sled and it idles perfect.
Doing mine tonight.

fullboredragon · Jan 8, 2015

Bad reeds

Well that kinda sucks, I have a set on bench that I'm scared to install... How are we supposed to know if there bad or not?

LOW IDLE AFTER INSTALLING V-FORCE-3R REEDS, ANYONE ELSE??

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