Does Weight Really Matter?

BigFish BC · Dec 10, 2014

Jaynelson said:
Too heavy for what? To be rideable? Obviously not. There are a variety of reasons I don't own one...weight is one, lack of stock HP another, dealer another, rolling over my sled a lot another, and not preferring the Cat chassis is another. That's enough for me....but other people will have a local Yamaha dealer, don't spend as much time upside down, and think the Cat chassis is the best of the 3. Or they really want a 4-stroke because they make crazy reliable power on boost. Fine by me....different strokes.

My stance in both of these threads is that is the weight issue is holding back the sales of 4-strokes....if you disagree with that, no prob! If so, what do you feel makes for the dismal sales numbers compared to the 2-strokes? And what would it take for them to make a splash in the mountain sled market the way they did/have in the motocross and bush dirtbikes?

its pretty obvious what it would take as the direction sledding is right now,is sidehilling through the trees all day.so that is where a lighter narrow sled shines,but how many riders actually do this?when you go up on the mountain most people ride the open easy terrain,allot try the bush bashing but one bad stuck or broke part & they dont do it again.i have seen it time & time again people buy mostly based on what other people are riding not what fits them & there riding style.
they obviously need more power not sure why they dont offer the sled with more power,bump the comp,better header design & a few other tweaks it will make 160hp no prob run 91 oct fuel.this is the one thing i think hold them back more than anything at least they have a turbo option now but that adds weight.
if yammi sticks with the 4 stroke i think they need to go to a 600 tripple with small turbo to get to the weight everybody seems to want these days.

BigFish BC · Dec 10, 2014

Jaynelson said:
Your question makes no sense. I'm not sure you understand the theory behind engine building and forced induction....and how they relate to fuel type. That's like asking would anyone run a turbo Yamaha on 20lbs with pump fuel....or 14lbs on 87 octane. It doesn't matter who builds it if you try to go up against physics. Different motors can run different boost levels on different types of fuel due to a variety of variables in the engine, turbo, EMS and fuel system. No 2-stroke sled can run 14lbs on pump fuel, but it's not due to the strength of the engine components. You can have the strongest engine internals on the planet....but if you have detonation issues (from too much boost and/or CR for the fuel you're running)....you'll break something. On ANY internal combustion engine.

Also, no one is arguing that Yamaha 4-strokes have the best power and reliability with FI....it's a very well known fact. If want to be the HP king and run it all-in - race gas, built motor, all the boost it will make and a fuel system to keep up...obviously the 4-stroke has a LOT more potential than the 2.

i was simply answering his question so most can understand it,the question was not mine it was sharps.i have been running & building turbo sleds since 2005 so yah i do know a couple things about them.

BigFish BC · Dec 10, 2014

CatRpillar said:
And what does a two stroke need to run the same?

i have never seen it done,they do make more power with less boost though,you could run a timing key & a lower comp head. but then you would run into other probs because of the way 2 strokes flow air.the newer 2 stroke turbos are actually pretty impressive.4-6 lbs is max on pump gas for a 2 stroke unless you are running higher elevation,a water to air intercooler will give you a bit more too.i remember when guys would run 5-6000rpm engagement to make 2 stroke turbos work:face-icon-small-hap

Jaynelson · Dec 10, 2014

BigFish BC said:
i was simply answering his question so most can understand it,the question was not mine it was sharps.i have been running & building turbo sleds since 2005 so yah i do know a couple things about them.

Sorry my bad....it was totally him I was replying to. This is a great response you had:

i have never seen it done,they do make more power with less boost though,you could run a timing key & a lower comp head. but then you would run into other probs because of the way 2 strokes flow air.the newer 2 stroke turbos are actually pretty impressive4-6 lbs is max on pump gas for a 2 stroke unless you are running higher elevation,a water to air intercooler will give you a bit more too.i remember when guys would run 5-6000rpm engagement to make 2 stroke turbos work

ts pretty obvious what it would take as the direction sledding is right now,is sidehilling through the trees all day.so that is where a lighter narrow sled shines,but how many riders actually do this?when you go up on the mountain most people ride the open easy terrain,allot try the bush bashing but one bad stuck or broke part & they dont do it again.i have seen it time & time again people buy mostly based on what other people are riding not what fits them & there riding style.

I can't say how many do, be we ride a good bit of aggressive terrain both by choice, and to access areas more off the beaten path. Never been scared of getting stuck that's for sure lol. Obviously not everyone that rides a new generation 2-stroke rides nothing by gnarly sidehills....just in the same way everyone with a turbo Yammy doesn't pull gnarly chutes all day every day.

they obviously need more power not sure why they dont offer the sled with more power,bump the comp,better header design & a few other tweaks it will make 160hp no prob run 91 oct fuel.this is the one thing i think hold them back more than anything at least they have a turbo option now but that adds weight.
if yammi sticks with the 4 stroke i think they need to go to a 600 tripple with small turbo to get to the weight everybody seems to want these days.

Agreed....I think at 160-170 hp, all else the same (including weight), they would have a lot more marketing appeal. The turbo kit gets the power to a good level, but ads more weight and cost. The motor either needs to be more strung out NA....or, like you say, small turbo or S/C from the factory. It would be interesting to see what a nastier NA 4-stroke in a sled would be like.

Jeva · Dec 10, 2014

I think that would make a great sled, if they could get the horse power to even 160 hp at any elevation (factory turbo) and under 500lbs they would have a winner. I keep waiting for this next game changer everybody talks about every year. But prices are getting out of control, there is no way I am spending $15,000 plus on a snowmobile. I want something in the middle, I don't need the most HP and I don't need the lightest sled.

KINS · Dec 10, 2014

Former Nytro Owner now ride Polaris.
For the last while I've been looking at Yamaha forums to see what I can learn to help out my buddy that has a 2014 Viper XTX. Not for trail riding, but for off trail riding.

We have two different sleds and there is no question that they handle and perform differently off trail. There is a bunch of factors for this and weight is without a doubt a contributing factor to the performance of both of these sleds.

Weight makes a difference, but in my opinion, the significance of this difference is different for all of us. And at the end of the day if your having a blast on the sled your riding you probably made the right choice. If your not, you may want to start looking at a different sled.

BigFish BC · Dec 10, 2014

Agreed....I think at 160-170 hp, all else the same (including weight), they would have a lot more marketing appeal. The turbo kit gets the power to a good level, but ads more weight and cost. The motor either needs to be more strung out NA....or, like you say, small turbo or S/C from the factory. It would be interesting to see what a nastier NA 4-stroke in a sled would be like.[/QUOTE]

the yamaha factory race hill climb & snowcross n/a nytro motors made in the 180hp range running race gas of coarse:face-icon-small-sho

Jaynelson · Dec 10, 2014

Is that stock displacement? I imagine higher CR, more revs, and the usual intake/exhaust uncorking, maybe a little headwork. Probably nothing too exotic would you think?

It would be interesting to see strokers or big bore for the 4S....but you'd be probably be looking at more $$ than a turbo kit, and still less HP, so it probably wouldn't make sense. But a strung out NA 4S is a fun motor....loved my 4S 450 bike. The maintenance on it was more time and $ than a comparable 250-300 2-stroke tho....but it went like a raped ape any gear any rpm.

BigFish BC · Dec 10, 2014

Jaynelson said:
Is that stock displacement? I imagine higher CR, more revs, and the usual intake/exhaust uncorking, maybe a little headwork. Probably nothing too exotic would you think?

It would be interesting to see strokers or big bore for the 4S....but you'd be probably be looking at more $$ than a turbo kit, and still less HP, so it probably wouldn't make sense. But a strung out NA 4S is a fun motor....loved my 4S 450 bike. The maintenance on it was more time and $ than a comparable 250-300 2-stroke tho....but it went like a raped ape any gear any rpm.

yup higher CR diff cams,headwork,race pipe & balancing lobes removed from crank shaft,full 112 race fuel about 188hp.
you can make about 160hp with evo header & timing flash + air box mod on 91 oct.

Sharp · Dec 10, 2014

Mcx 270 kit. *A thicker head gasket must be installed. The turbo pressure is automatically compensated at any baro pressure, so the power is the same even at high altitude. Boost will change with allitude. Every lbs of boost is close to 10Hp increase. The apex engine will handle it better than the Genesis engine. It pushing the engine to run at this boost but mcx has a great history with it.

Crapping pump gas is inexpensive around $3.00/gallon vs 110oct $9.00/gallon. 10gallon tank $30.00 to fill compared to $90.00.

What does a natural aspirated sled produce at high allitude? Weight is imported but not the number one thing I look for in a sled. I love boost. If polaris or doo made a sled that was reliable to boost than I might be on board. They don't so I go with yamaha for reliability. I dont feel the weight when riding just when stuck. Sure it would be nice if they were lighter so would the others. Why not 200hp 300 lb two stroke. Most people that ride sleds need to loose weigh so why don't they. They demand it in there sled but not in themselves. What more important?

CatRpillar · Dec 10, 2014

Jeva said:
The topic goes from "Does weight really matter" to talking about tennis shoes and boots and muscle cars and how much boost you can make on pump gas. Nothing even relating to the original post. Talk about off topic.:face-icon-small-dis

What does an on topic thread look like? I've heard of them but never seen one....:face-icon-small-ton

You just need to be a little more tangential in your thinking.:face-icon-small-hap

Love the thought of a 600 triple turbo though. Rev it to something like 6500 for better clutch efficiency and to lighten the crank assembly. Then go to a simple two valve sohc head and titanium rods etc. That would drop maybe 20 lbs off the current turbo plus less reciprocating and rotating inertia which can really help with the feeling of weight. Kind of like an open class bike vs a 600 (apologies for the off topic comparison but I thought it easier than staying on topic with a full mathematical analysis lol).

Deep Powder Guy · Dec 10, 2014

If any factory built stock NA sleds between 170 & 180 horse they would have a real winner on there hands. Both Cat, Doo & Polaris had 2S motors at the consumer level. If Yamaha can pull more power than 135 hp from there current motor that would for sure attract consumer attention....when you take a close look at the Viper they really haven't brought nothing new to the table other than they have come a long way quick since the introduction of the RX1.

I still believe Yamaha has room to do a much better job, with the Viper MTX than they presently have introduced. To the consumer hopefully 2016 will see refinements .

All this talk about boost...8 to 10 pounds of boost is manageable boost for most riders to handle. When you start add more and more boost the sled becomes harder and harder for the operator to manage....Speaking from experience.

DPG

Sharp · Dec 10, 2014

Deep Powder Guy said:
If any factory built stock NA sleds between 170 & 180 horse they would have a real winner on there hands. Both Cat, Doo & Polaris had 2S motors at the consumer level. If Yamaha can pull more power than 135 hp from there current motor that would for sure attract consumer attention....when you take a close look at the Viper they really haven't brought nothing new to the table other than they have come a long way quick since the introduction of the RX1.

I still believe Yamaha has room to do a much better job, with the Viper MTX than they presently have introduced. To the consumer hopefully 2016 will see refinements .

All this talk about boost...8 to 10 pounds of boost is manageable boost for most riders to handle. When you start add more and more boost the sled becomes harder and harder for the operator to manage....Speaking from experience.

DPG

I agree with everything you said especially with handling of boosted sleds. It's common for riders to pin it when riding. You can't always do it with boosted sleds.

Deep Powder Guy · Dec 10, 2014

CatRpillar said:
What does an on topic thread look like? I've heard of them but never seen one....:face-icon-small-ton

Imagine how boring this forum would be if we weren't all a bunch of objective & subjective SOB''s

DPG

icr · Dec 10, 2014

Some talk of peak hp from the same guys saying they only feel the weight when stuck so it doesn't matter. I'm always aware of being on a heavy sled, it weighs the same at idle as wide open. Peak hp is only relevant when wide open, which is not 100% of the time, especially on a boosted sled.

Sharp · Dec 10, 2014

Deep Powder Guy said:
Imagine how boring this forum would be if we weren't all a bunch of objective & subjective SOB''s

DPG

That's right, it's what keeps me interested. Plus, there's no snow so we need something to talk about.

Deep Powder Guy · Dec 10, 2014

Sharp said:
I agree with everything you said especially with handling of boosted sleds. It common for riders to pin it when riding. You can always do it with boosted sleds.

200 Hp will get you up 98% of the longest biggest chutes...And there no denying a turbo'd sled up high where the air is thin has more than an edge over any NA sled especially on those big long pulls the track speed is nothing short of fantastic. Almost to easy if you ask me. :face-icon-small-hap

DPG

Sharp · Dec 10, 2014

I pick up my new Viper this weekend. SR Viper 162", MCX 270 and ARC.

KINS · Dec 11, 2014

Jeva said:
if they could get the horse power to even 160 hp at any elevation (factory turbo) and under 500lbs they would have a winner.

there is no way I am spending $15,000 plus on a snowmobile.

Pretty much sums it up.

Please give me more power, less weight and a decent price. Now, after you've done that I'd like a few more ponies, a few less pounds at the same price. :face-icon-small-hap

Sharp · Dec 11, 2014

Only heavy when stuck. Chris Brown said that all the time. I'm sure that has changed now that he'swith poo. Money talks.

Does Weight Really Matter?

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