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Old 09-11-2011, 04:04 PM
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Cool OIL RATIO DISCUSSION ON THE 800 CFI MOTORS

I thought I'd start a new thread on this topic rather than leaving it buried in another thread...

The discussion is about fuel/oil ratios in our sleds...not the brand of OIL. I really don't want to turn this into a "Cheerleader" thread for your favorite brand of oil..

The discussion is not about better oils and the theories about better quality oils. There are certainly lots of good brands out there and that would be a topic for another thread.

This is NOT a thread about using a better / cheaper / cleaner etc etc oil... that is a personal choice that many people seem to be very emotional about.

And also not a "bash" thread on Polaris branded oils.

Use what you use... that is YOUR choice/right.


I think that the VES Gold "Plus" was introduced and specified by Polaris with the intent to reduce emissions and a requirement for the EPA certification on this engine package.

The factory, I will speculate, has many factors in the the decision to choose an oil and the ratio at which they set the pump...buffered with cost and engine longevity for the end user. I believe that to sell the sled... the OEM Must also have to sell oil for that sled that meets EPA regs when used in the engine package as certified.

IMO..on the new engines... you should adjust the oil pump a bit richer than specified by the factory.

I will speculate that the factory cannot recommend this to the dealers as more oil will raise the emissions of the sled... something that the factory would be limited in this capacity by their EPA certification process. I will also speculate, simply put, the factory cannot make any recommendations (because of EPA compliance regulation) to consumers or the dealer network to alter any of the adjustments that could increase emissions of the engine. And that a dealer cannot officially instruct the consumer to make any adjustments.... That would include decreasing the fuel : oil ratio (for example going from 50:1 and increasing the oiling of the engine to say... 45:1 or 40:1)

If your choice of good quality oil is slightly increased in volume... I believe that wear on the motor will be decreased to some degree.

Now don't get me wrong... there is a point at which more oil will decrease the performance of the engine... at what point that will happen is the question... and what is the balance of performance vs longevity.

At what point will a lower fuel : oil ratio noticeably affect performance is beyond my scope of experience... But, IMO, a little bit more oil is not going to hurt your performance.

Would a 40:1 ratio with today's synth oils, give any noticeable decrease the power output or change the operational character of the engine?

Would that 40:1 ratio help the pistons and bearings live longer?

For example, how much decreased performance is realized when, on a motor that is broken in and past the break in timer on the ECU, you add some premix to the tank??

HMMM.. more to ponder.

I'd like to hear from our readers that have something to add to this... Polaris techs and "average Joes" with intellegent input on this topic...I've also asked some people "In the know" to chime in here.. It will be interesting to see how this thread plays out.
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Old 09-11-2011, 04:20 PM
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I run 32:1 premix. I saw an article that showed no decrease in performance down to around 16:1, if I remember correctly. 32:1 is an easy mix at any gallonage-4oz/gal.


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Old 09-11-2011, 04:27 PM
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ELI... are you talking about running this on a 800 CFI motor equipped with the factory oil injection pump?

Can you dig up that article that you saw?
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Old 09-11-2011, 04:43 PM
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Also Some thing to keep in mind.. When adding more oil..


Isn't Kinda going Leaner... More Oil.. Same Gas.. . In the same Burn Chamber.. ?????


Also.. For the steady throttle guys.. Bumping up the oil pump is nice security..

But the ones that ride it like they stole it Kind. Throttle is to the bars! And moving.. not keeping it at one speed.

Keeping on key.. here..

Yes, Could use a little more oil.. But not much.. this Oil is getting$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.. I think i went through 6 Gals in 1600 Miles.. When i think that way... That's a season of riding for $330 in oil $650 in Fuel
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Old 09-11-2011, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by mountainhorse View Post
ELI... are you talking about running this on a 800 CFI motor equipped with the factory oil injection pump?

Can you dig up that article that you saw?
I'm looking on the net for it....it was an older test.


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Old 09-11-2011, 05:08 PM
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http://www.bridgestonemotorcycle.com...oilpremix6.pdf

Here is one, not the exact one I was thinking of......
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Old 09-11-2011, 05:12 PM
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Here is a quote on a three-wheeler forum regarding oil.....

Pre-mix ratios and power production

I have run Dyno tests on this subject. We used a Dynojet dynamometer, and used a fresh, broken in top-end for each test. We used specially calibrated jets to ensure the fuel flow was identical with each different ratio, and warmed the engine at 3000 rpm for 3 minutes before each run. Our tests were performed in the rpm range of 2500 to 9000 rpm, with the power peak of our test bike (a modifed '86 YZ 250, mine) occuring at 8750 rpm. We tested at 76 degrees F, at 65% relative humidity. We started at 10:1, and went to 100:1. Our results showed that a two-stroke engine makes its best power at 18:1. Any more oil than that, and the engine ran poorly, because we didn't have any jets rich enough to compensate for that much oil in the fuel, and the burn-characteristics of the fuel with that much oil tended to be poor. The power loss from 18:1 to 32:1 was approximately 2 percent. The loss from 18:1 to 50:1 was nearly 9 percent. On a modern 250, that can be as much as 4 horsepower. The loss from 18:1 to 100:1 was nearly 18 percent. The reason for the difference in output is simple. More oil provides a better seal between the ring and the cylinder wall.

Now, I realize that 18:1 is impractical unless you ride your engine all-out, keeping it pinned at all times. But running reasonable ratios no less than 32:1 will produce more power, and give your engine better protection, thus making it perform better for longer.


As a side note, I no longer run 26:1, I now run 32:1. I'm not a young man any more, and I just can't push as hard as I used to, so I don't need as much oil now. 32:1 is enough oil to do what is needed for me now, since I'm getting slow..
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Old 09-11-2011, 05:35 PM
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I wonder what the thermal content, in BTU's/Lb (or the metric equiv)... of a given gasoline and a given oil is mixed at say 4 different ratios... 50:1 , 40:1 , 30:1 , 20:1

Ring seal is not something that I considered...but the bore size, stroke, ring velocity/acceleration and thickness.. bore material, ring material would also have an effect on the output. So for this conversation... we'll keep it to the Stock CFi 800 engine so we don't get side-tracked.

More oil for ring sealing might balance out less thermal content of an oil/fuel mix. HMMM...















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Old 09-11-2011, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eli View Post
Here is a quote on a three-wheeler forum regarding oil.....

Pre-mix ratios and power production

I have run Dyno tests on this subject. We used a Dynojet dynamometer, and used a fresh, broken in top-end for each test. We used specially calibrated jets to ensure the fuel flow was identical with each different ratio, and warmed the engine at 3000 rpm for 3 minutes before each run. Our tests were performed in the rpm range of 2500 to 9000 rpm, with the power peak of our test bike (a modifed '86 YZ 250, mine) occuring at 8750 rpm. We tested at 76 degrees F, at 65% relative humidity. We started at 10:1, and went to 100:1. Our results showed that a two-stroke engine makes its best power at 18:1. Any more oil than that, and the engine ran poorly, because we didn't have any jets rich enough to compensate for that much oil in the fuel, and the burn-characteristics of the fuel with that much oil tended to be poor. The power loss from 18:1 to 32:1 was approximately 2 percent. The loss from 18:1 to 50:1 was nearly 9 percent. On a modern 250, that can be as much as 4 horsepower. The loss from 18:1 to 100:1 was nearly 18 percent. The reason for the difference in output is simple. More oil provides a better seal between the ring and the cylinder wall.

Now, I realize that 18:1 is impractical unless you ride your engine all-out, keeping it pinned at all times. But running reasonable ratios no less than 32:1 will produce more power, and give your engine better protection, thus making it perform better for longer.


As a side note, I no longer run 26:1, I now run 32:1. I'm not a young man any more, and I just can't push as hard as I used to, so I don't need as much oil now. 32:1 is enough oil to do what is needed for me now, since I'm getting slow..
Eli,

1. On the 800 CFI is it possible for me (my Mechanic)to set the oil pump delivery ratio to 32:1?

2. Is there a specific setting on the oil pump for this ratio I can have my mechanic set it to or is it hit or miss?


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Old 09-11-2011, 05:48 PM
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Old 09-11-2011, 05:51 PM
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Old 09-11-2011, 06:00 PM
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Old 09-11-2011, 06:05 PM
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Old 09-11-2011, 07:55 PM
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Old 09-11-2011, 08:01 PM
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Old 09-12-2011, 10:37 AM
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Old 09-12-2011, 10:55 AM
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