2 strokes complete standalone ecu for t-m8 and t-m1000

jgw50 · Jan 11, 2010

MCIVER said:
is there any reason why you couldn't use a fuel control box (boondocker box ect.) with this standalone ecu ? I think this would be the ticket most people are looking for as for as tuning on the hill.

If you wanted to do that, i'd just get a microsquirt, use it to control timing, and then use the stock ECU to control fuel. No reason to pay all that money for someones standalone fuel map when your just going to tweak it via injector signal modifier anyways.

I think the standalone would have some advantages, but not being able to intuitively adjust on the hill is a show stopper for me. If you want to run a stock cutler kit on your machine though, with no other changes, and if you have the same injectors (square, circle, triangle) as whatever they have tested this one on, its probably a pretty nice setup. Change any parameter on the cutler kit, or change the injectors, or anything else, and you run the risk of their map being off and needing to control fuel somehow, or paying someone $150/hr to tune it on a dyno for you which most likley will not translate to conditions up on the hill.

I bought a dyno, tuned my sled all fall with it, I talk to guys like Shain Stanger who say things that do not work on the dyno, and make little engineering sense. I come up with 13 reasons why he's just flat our wrong and how he cant tell my why it works, it just does. Then I get up on the hill, the dyno goes out the window, I spend hours doing what my engineering senses tell me to, then I usually end up narrowing in on something eerily similar to what a guy like Shain said in the first place. (NO, I do not ride a twisted kit)

Not bashing here, think the standalone could be great, but accounting for all tuning with a laptop in a lab just wont cut it. Getting all loaded up, driving to the trailhead, and running my machine for 15 minutes to find that I need to change something without a way to do it quickly, just won't cut it.

Bluetooth my smartphone into the ECU, let me change MAP vs. RPM tables, timing tables, intake temp compensation, coolant temp compensation, etc.. I'll learn how to be a pro engine tuner and probably end up with a good running sled after a ton of down time and more time staring at my phone that where i'm going.

Give me a simple crude way to tune fuel / timing quickly and graphically, like Attitude and to lesser extend boondocker in order to keep everything in check while I ride, priceless. Fantastic. When I put my water air IC on i'll compensate for it on the fly. Maybe in the summer i'll hook the dyno up and try and capture everything in the ECU maps, but in the winter, I just want to change things on me sled, and ride.

glassman · Jan 11, 2010

Just when I thought I had this control box figured out, the game has changed!

Daltech · Jan 11, 2010

I think some of you guys are a bit of track here. Whit a tuned standalone, you don`t need to adjust it on the fly. Have anyone seen a turbo`d factory car need to be adjusted on the fly? No, beacause the ECU is designed for turbo use. When you boost a non turbo ingition and fuel system, then you will have to make adjustment all the time. Seen alot of track cars whit standalones on the tracks. Never need to adjust the maps after it`s dialed in in the dyno.
The tuning opportunies is waay better whit a standslone. I could remember when we started to get more and more EFI sleds. Some pepole said it was crap, and newer would work. Just carburators was good enough. If you guys don`t want to ride whit a standalone, dont. Stop bashing this product. There is alot of us other who has been waiting for this to happens for some years now.

I`m a beliver, and i won`t turbo my sled before I have this ECU on my sled.
Way to go.

supraturbo · Jan 11, 2010

Boyko said:
That’s Funny, How many miles do you think you can get out of a 2cly 2-stroke 1000 without opening it up. I had a Wideband on a M-1000 when it was stock and now it is boosted the Air Fuel Numbers roll down a lot smoother when you load it up now than it did stock.

Considering you have very little testing on this your remarks are kind of a slap on the face for a lot of people that have worked hard providing hardware and software for the efi aspect of this industry. There are a lot of hard running boosted efi sleds ripping around.

Your making a lot of promises, 3500 miles on a dyno? 3 weeks on the snow? How many different areas, altitudes and weather conditions? Do you know how much real word testing in different conditions the manufactures make on there efi systems before they release them. Get your system out for a year and than you can make judgment on how well it works taking your customer feedback into account!

WOOOO, boyko.....i didn't want to slap nobody in the face neither bash anyone works, for your record we have over 15 years in devlopment of efi mapping, turbo custom kit fabrication, race car fabrication from a to z, tuning vehicule dynamic control ect ect ect...this being said, keep in mind why we have launch our work toward this project: we want to offer to the public a simple choice for a certain application(turbo sleds 2 strokes). Most people, including me, i think, do not like the fact they have to mess around with the fuel box when they move from top of the mountain to bottom of it and certainly not us, flatlander, since there is not to many of these monster hill around. we have devlelopped this ecu not for the sponsored slednecks,mountain mod maniacs(they would certainly benefit from it though!!!) we think at 6000$ for a turbo kit you should be able to have a smooth riding and a plug and play application, not to messed up half of your oem wiring harness to hook up whatever. even you i'm sure knows nothing can get close to a well mapped standalone compare to piggyback style boxes for efi application( i know Paul at impulse turbo running standalone ecu now and i bet you 100$ he won't look back ever).
if i wrinkled someone on here it is probably because of the language barrier(formulation of the words) because it is not my intention to put someone or some company down, not at all. the purpose of a public forum is to exchange ideas, nobody knows it all....certainly not me.

supraturbo · Jan 11, 2010

Daltech said:
I think some of you guys are a bit of track here. Whit a tuned standalone, you don`t need to adjust it on the fly. Have anyone seen a turbo`d factory car need to be adjusted on the fly? No, beacause the ECU is designed for turbo use. When you boost a non turbo ingition and fuel system, then you will have to make adjustment all the time. Seen alot of track cars whit standalones on the tracks. Never need to adjust the maps after it`s dialed in in the dyno.
The tuning opportunies is waay better whit a standslone. I could remember when we started to get more and more EFI sleds. Some pepole said it was crap, and newer would work. Just carburators was good enough. If you guys don`t want to ride whit a standalone, dont. Stop bashing this product. There is alot of us other who has been waiting for this to happens for some years now.

I`m a beliver, and i won`t turbo my sled before I have this ECU on my sled.
Way to go.

I guess i have an allied now

Offroad Engineering · Jan 11, 2010

Congratulations to those pursuing this project, piggybacks are a great affordable solution but to those comparing them to a full standalone, good luck. Coming from a high performance forced induction background (supra stomper

900 hp VR4 lol) it is far and away the best solution but like mentioned, it's 2k vs $400.

I wanted to pursue this project myself with a homebuilt turbo kit but my job doesn't give me the r&d time it takes to make it work. There are hours that go into a good tune and I didn't have them so I kept it na for this year.

If you guys get a good tune and an equally good turbo (I'm rather critical of all but a few on the market and with enough forced induction experience I hope you are too)
I'll rip off my ported cylinders and enjoy a pull and go turbo m1000 next year.

Good luck and let us know how it progresses, i'd love to see all inputs and a map

supraturbo · Jan 11, 2010

jgw50 said:
If you wanted to do that, i'd just get a microsquirt, use it to control timing, and then use the stock ECU to control fuel. No reason to pay all that money for someones standalone fuel map when your just going to tweak it via injector signal modifier anyways.

I think the standalone would have some advantages, but not being able to intuitively adjust on the hill is a show stopper for me. If you want to run a stock cutler kit on your machine though, with no other changes, and if you have the same injectors (square, circle, triangle) as whatever they have tested this one on, its probably a pretty nice setup. Change any parameter on the cutler kit, or change the injectors, or anything else, and you run the risk of their map being off and needing to control fuel somehow, or paying someone $150/hr to tune it on a dyno for you which most likley will not translate to conditions up on the hill.

I bought a dyno, tuned my sled all fall with it, I talk to guys like Shain Stanger who say things that do not work on the dyno, and make little engineering sense. I come up with 13 reasons why he's just flat our wrong and how he cant tell my why it works, it just does. Then I get up on the hill, the dyno goes out the window, I spend hours doing what my engineering senses tell me to, then I usually end up narrowing in on something eerily similar to what a guy like Shain said in the first place. (NO, I do not ride a twisted kit)

Not bashing here, think the standalone could be great, but accounting for all tuning with a laptop in a lab just wont cut it. Getting all loaded up, driving to the trailhead, and running my machine for 15 minutes to find that I need to change something without a way to do it quickly, just won't cut it.

Bluetooth my smartphone into the ECU, let me change MAP vs. RPM tables, timing tables, intake temp compensation, coolant temp compensation, etc.. I'll learn how to be a pro engine tuner and probably end up with a good running sled after a ton of down time and more time staring at my phone that where i'm going.

Give me a simple crude way to tune fuel / timing quickly and graphically, like Attitude and to lesser extend boondocker in order to keep everything in check while I ride, priceless. Fantastic. When I put my water air IC on i'll compensate for it on the fly. Maybe in the summer i'll hook the dyno up and try and capture everything in the ECU maps, but in the winter, I just want to change things on me sled, and ride.

common......tell me you are not serious..."" i'd just get a microsquirt, use it to control timing, and then use the stock ECU to control fuel""..... please explain a little bit more how you will end up using stock ecu to add fuel??and bypass ecu to control timming?? i'm a newbie to this and want to leran more and more!

badass1000 · Jan 11, 2010

I think alot are just confused and do not know the full benifits and differences of a standalone vs secondary fuel controllers, and piggy back systems. Standalones when setup and tuned correctly are way superior then a stock ecu and a piggy back box.
that being said... You also need to know how to use, and tune a standalone to get all the benifits. standalone has too many features and peramaters to adjust and know what they do for most. You have to be pretty educated to know what you are doing and do it well. You could setup all the parameters and have a good tune for your specific build or a good base tune for some thing custom. then show the customer how to make a few adjustments to the fuel tables to work with their custom application.
simple piggy back boxes are easier for most to tune with and know what they are doing. You can screw something up quick with a full standalone if you do not know what you are doing.
I have alot of experiance raceing and tuning turbo street/drag bikes. I have used alot of different piggy back fuel, and ignition control boxes, data logers, multi stage boost controllers, and several secondary fuel controllers. I have limited use on standalones and have never owned a standalone. Do I want one? yes. I have ben reading up on them for a long time and have checked out the software and played around with a few friends bikes that have standalones and a couple cars. But even I am a little intimidated by them.

Boyko · Jan 11, 2010

supraturbo said:
WOOOO, boyko.....i didn't want to slap nobody in the face neither bash anyone works, for your record we have over 15 years in devlopment of efi mapping, turbo custom kit fabrication, race car fabrication from a to z, tuning vehicule dynamic control ect ect ect...this being said, keep in mind why we have launch our work toward this project: we want to offer to the public a simple choice for a certain application(turbo sleds 2 strokes). Most people, including me, i think, do not like the fact they have to mess around with the fuel box when they move from top of the mountain to bottom of it and certainly not us, flatlander, since there is not to many of these monster hill around. we have devlelopped this ecu not for the sponsored slednecks,mountain mod maniacs(they would certainly benefit from it though!!!) we think at 6000$ for a turbo kit you should be able to have a smooth riding and a plug and play application, not to messed up half of your oem wiring harness to hook up whatever. even you i'm sure knows nothing can get close to a well mapped standalone compare to piggyback style boxes for efi application( i know Paul at impulse turbo running standalone ecu now and i bet you 100$ he won't look back ever).
if i wrinkled someone on here it is probably because of the language barrier(formulation of the words) because it is not my intention to put someone or some company down, not at all. the purpose of a public forum is to exchange ideas, nobody knows it all....certainly not me.

Sorry I do not mean to come across negative this a important project!

Anyone building kits would jump on your product. It is cool you have invested the time and effort in it.

I think you are just making it sound to easy. You can not sell this thing until it is tested at different altitudes and weather, That is the best thing about EFI. I really think this is going to take a lot of time and R&D. You are working with a 2-stroke here not a 4-stroke like Paul at Impulse.

Do you know why there is no factory Mass Air Flow Sensor or a MAP sensor on the M1000? Don’t you think the fuel and timing tables you come up with will have to be specific for the turbo kit? A closed loop wideband sensor is not really a reliable option on a two stroke sure you can failsafe it and set it up only for a small percentage of the tuning but the sensors do not last. You are going to have to mostly rely on hard fuel tabels

Sure a standalone ecu works well on a boosted 4 stroke car. How many stand alone systems do you see out there on boosted 2-strokes.

I hope it works out better than you think it can, just don't make it sound easy and it will work on every sled until you are there.

supraturbo · Jan 11, 2010

Boyko said:
Sorry I do not mean to come across negative this a important project!

Anyone building kits would jump on your product. It is cool you have invested the time and effort in it.

I think you are just making it sound to easy. You can not sell this thing until it is tested at different altitudes and weather, That is the best thing about EFI. I really think this is going to take a lot of time and R&D. You are working with a 2-stroke here not a 4-stroke like Paul at Impulse.

Do you know why there is no factory Mass Air Flow Sensor or a MAP sensor on the M1000? Don’t you think the fuel and timing tables you come up with will have to be specific for the turbo kit? A closed loop wideband sensor is not really a reliable option on a two stroke sure you can failsafe it and set it up only for a small percentage of the tuning but the sensors do not last. You are going to have to mostly rely on hard fuel tabels

Sure a standalone ecu works well on a boosted 4 stroke car. How many stand alone systems do you see out there on boosted 2-strokes.

I hope it works out better than you think it can, just don't make it sound easy and it will work on every sled until you are there.

you are a bit right...working only with two cylinder with not too many injectors, no variable valve timming,no traction control,no anti-lag,no lauch control,no dynamic control(skid control),no twin turbo,no torque converter....is a tinny bit easy in fact. the challenge in this project is more fine tuning the cold starts and as of now we started the sled at -35 celsius already and waiting for the colder temp.to come(if any!) this is no rocket science you know, but average driver/tuner will not jump into such a project because the market is not so big therefore not too much money to be made.......but i don't need money since i have several other businesses and i'm not rich but doing ok. at first i was doing this project only for me but 2-3 turbo maker i contacted showed interest and i decided to extend the tuning process further more than what i needed myself making sure this ecu's mapping will make everyone happy. will soon go fine tune altitude with one of the turbo kit maker i partnershipped with(will not take too long...probably just a few hours or so since we are equipped with wireless connection to ecu and will adjust mapping on the fly while testing).
you are pulling my leg when you say""Do you know why there is no factory Mass Air Flow Sensor or a MAP sensor on the M1000? "" right??

when you say

on’t you think the fuel and timing tables you come up with will have to be specific for the turbo kit? the answer is yes....to be optimized only though.

when you say:A closed loop wideband sensor is not really a reliable option on a two stroke sure you can failsafe it and set it up only for a small percentage of the tuning but the sensors do not last. You are going to have to mostly rely on hard fuel tabels.........the answer is:a 100% close loop is not proper for this application, what is wrong to rely on spot on hard fuel/timming tables(like 99% of all based standalone tuner on earth)??

when you say:Sure a standalone ecu works well on a boosted 4 stroke car. How many stand alone systems do you see out there on boosted 2-strokes....... what do you know about standalone not working well on 2 strokes??? there is not many standalone ecu for two strokes that i know of,that's why i'm diving in!! an engine is an engine...basicaly just an air pump you know.

when you say:You are working with a 2-stroke here not a 4-stroke like Paul at Impulse.......thanks for reminding me!!!but after 3500 miles on the dyno and now close to 1500 miles on the fielld i think i noticed !!

when i will have an ecu coming back from production you are welcome to call me and you can come up here to test my sled if you want.

supraturbo · Jan 11, 2010

Offroad Engineering said:
Congratulations to those pursuing this project, piggybacks are a great affordable solution but to those comparing them to a full standalone, good luck. Coming from a high performance forced induction background (supra stomper 900 hp VR4 lol) it is far and away the best solution but like mentioned, it's 2k vs $400.

I wanted to pursue this project myself with a homebuilt turbo kit but my job doesn't give me the r&d time it takes to make it work. There are hours that go into a good tune and I didn't have them so I kept it na for this year.

If you guys get a good tune and an equally good turbo (I'm rather critical of all but a few on the market and with enough forced induction experience I hope you are too)
I'll rip off my ported cylinders and enjoy a pull and go turbo m1000 next year.

Good luck and let us know how it progresses, i'd love to see all inputs and a map

since you talk about it........i'm very critical, like you about all but a few of the kit available......but hey, that's where this industry is right now. i realy think we will see a big improvment in a near futur when standalone rules and more reliable boosted sled will be driven. thanks for your support!

Jeff K · Jan 17, 2010

Any updates on the testing in the mountains?

supraturbo · Jan 17, 2010

the higher we went was 3900 feet.....! so still need to travel to b.c. for altitude fine tuning(not too long to tune....probably 2 hours or so). should get back from australia our final prod. ecu(board circuit) next week (friday), then we will organize a trip to b.c. or alberta to test in altitude. remember the sled is stock from top to bottom, 2009 m1000,with either push turbo or cpc turbo not decided yet wich one we will drop in the sled for testing in high elevation........

hatchers · Jan 17, 2010

jgw50 said:
I bought a dyno, tuned my sled all fall with it, I talk to guys like Shain Stanger who say things that do not work on the dyno, and make little engineering sense. I come up with 13 reasons why he's just flat our wrong and how he cant tell my why it works, it just does. Then I get up on the hill, the dyno goes out the window, I spend hours doing what my engineering senses tell me to, then I usually end up narrowing in on something eerily similar to what a guy like Shain said in the first place. (NO, I do not ride a twisted kit)

man you took the words right out of my mouth....i have the same problem, i fight the knowledge of the turbo builders with my schooling and what i do for a living...and im usually wrong:light::beer;

RACINSTATION · Jan 17, 2010

I learned this long ago. It always baffled me how a 145 HP sled could slaughter a 185 HP sled if set up right. That is when I quit riding the dyno and started ridding the sled......

PS I have never really ridden a dyno, this was just used for illustration purposes for the analogy.

RACINSTATION · Jan 17, 2010

I learned this long ago. It always baffled me how a 145 HP sled could slaughter a 185 HP sled if set up right. That is when I quit riding the dyno and started ridding the sled......

PS I have never really ridden a dyno, this was just used for illustration purposes for the analogy.

supraturbo · Jan 18, 2010

hatchers said:
man you took the words right out of my mouth....i have the same problem, i fight the knowledge of the turbo builders with my schooling and what i do for a living...and im usually wrong:light::beer;

fair enough !!

Jeff K · Jan 18, 2010

supraturbo said:
the higher we went was 3900 feet.....! so still need to travel to b.c. for altitude fine tuning(not too long to tune....probably 2 hours or so). should get back from australia our final prod. ecu(board circuit) next week (friday), then we will organize a trip to b.c. or alberta to test in altitude. remember the sled is stock from top to bottom, 2009 m1000,with either push turbo or cpc turbo not decided yet wich one we will drop in the sled for testing in high elevation........

When you come out to Alberta/BC let me know as I would like to come see the sled (and testing/tuning) in action!

supraturbo · Jan 21, 2010

another 500 miles without problems this week, will need to change track tough!! i'm afraid the stock one will exit the tunnel one day in so many pieces!! we are getting there!

supraturbo · Jan 21, 2010

Jeff K said:
When you come out to Alberta/BC let me know as I would like to come see the sled (and testing/tuning) in action!

jeff k, i will post when and where when ready.......thanks for the support anyway!

2 strokes complete standalone ecu for t-m8 and t-m1000

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