TRS clutching NA

Norway · Apr 29, 2017

Ok so I've lurked in the turbo forum and caught wind of Tony and the guys' work on clutching. Live and ride sealevel so turbo is not for me.

Tony (TRS here) had an idea about this working for a NA sled as well, since the concept is trying to capture maximum clutching efficiency and power to the track (instead of boiling clutches and eating belts with that energy...).

I'll copy some feedback from the turbo thread sp we can get going on our own here.

Sorry about the timing, I know summer is pretty much here. But hang on and watch some HBO.. :face-icon-small-win

Norway · Apr 29, 2017

TRS:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paluby View Post
I compared it to my 46-34F cut before making the switch haha. One thing I really like is the Indy single cut helix ER notch. So much nicer than the dual cut helix I had before.
Yes sir, I informed Dan the problem we were having with the custom cut helix orders "notch" when he was at my place. Along with the remedy. He had them change it on his order.
We as consumers, buying a few at a time don't have that luxury. Cudos to Dan for getting it done.
A 140 start on the secondary spring will generally remedy the non-engagement of the reverse notch. Getting to a lighter initial on secondary clutch setups warrant machining the notch.

Testing going on with a 42-32F ER single cut that looks very promising.
Last edited by TRS; 04-25-2017 at 05:59 PM.
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Davajn:
Got the kit now. Its the mountain 2 helix with only one cut. And turbo 3 weights 67-78gram.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norway View Post
So did we get the N/A part of this branched off somewhere or not? Does not look like it.

See the weights are getting hard to come by and wondering what the next best thing is? Could it be us NA guys can run something different with good results?

On topic about torque arms, how solid can such a link be? When on full load, is there much flex left with the types offered? Or are they stretched so hard by the turbo power that in reality you cold have a chain there in stead? Wondering if you could use a link that has some slack, letting the stock rubbers take the vibration. And then, under load, the engine twist until parallel and stop against the torque arm.

Yes? No?

RS
Im certainly interested in an NA setup as well but the lack of availability for lightning weights is keeping me away. Sounds like they are the only way to go. Would be sweet if someone could start producing them again... definitely wouldnt have to be in .1 gram increments either, 2 gram like stock with the option to drill would be perfect. Seems like the average ride consists of a variation of 2000-4000' anyway.
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We will be working on a Axys NA set up next year. The Pro NA set up is killer. It's a good starting point. Get heavier weights and have them machined down to the 62.5 size. Or whatever you think you need.

IMO dialing in Tony's clutching is a bigger gain than porting or a big bore. My two buddies with stock Pro's and Tony's clutching shock a lot of people.
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Originally Posted by Spaarky View Post
We will be working on a Axys NA set up next year. The Pro NA set up is killer. It's a good starting point. Get heavier weights and have them machined down to the 62.5 size. Or whatever you think you need.

IMO dialing in Tony's clutching is a bigger gain than porting or a big bore. My two buddies with stock Pro's and Tony's clutching shock a lot of people.
Do you have a recommendation on machining? Indy Dan? Maybe someone local? I am by Brookings.
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Originally Posted by Spaarky View Post
We will be working on a Axys NA set up next year. The Pro NA set up is killer. It's a good starting point. Get heavier weights and have them machined down to the 62.5 size. Or whatever you think you need.

IMO dialing in Tony's clutching is a bigger gain than porting or a big bore. My two buddies with stock Pro's and Tony's clutching shock a lot of people.
What is the pro NA setup? I have the 46/34F in there noe with a 100-200 spring. Stock gold om primary with 70 Lightning and pillede one Thon shim (not sure I'm done there).

Pulls strong! but only reaches 7950-8000 and IT surges forward even og engagement is smooth.

Have pro gears to put on, but wonder if 68gr weights and a slightly shallower helix Are in order?

RS

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Originally Posted by Norway View Post
What is the pro NA setup? I have the 46/34F in there noe with a 100-200 spring. Stock gold om primary with 70 Lightning and pillede one Thon shim (not sure I'm done there).

Pulls strong! but only reaches 7950-8000 and IT surges forward even og engagement is smooth.

Have pro gears to put on, but wonder if 68gr weights and a slightly shallower helix Are in order?

RS

Sent fra min S60 via Tapatalk
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This is for a 13-15 for 8-10,000' , stock belt drive, 163 track
54 34 .46 ER or .36 ER
120-220 Red/Green secondary spring
140-330 Stock Polaris primary spring
60 gr Lightning weights
If you had your sheaves machined use the Polaris 120-310 primary spring

Testing
46-32F
100-150 red/yellow secondary spring
110-290 Polaris Primary spring
59gr. Lightning weights
This is not for a heavy weight rider.( -200#)

You must set your center to center 11.5" and lead in set to .00"-.020".

geo · May 2, 2017

I've played with this on the N/A pro Norway.

I have 48/34F and 46/32F on my cuts (reverse cut is standard Team and have no issues 'cause reverse is to just get out of the truck for me).

I ended with 46/32F and 100/150 spring because my goal was lightest spring (it's a "feel" thing for me).

The most important thing is to TRUST this secondary set-up (you can change secondary spring a bit for what you like in feel) as proven and simply focus on #1 getting the mechanical set-up correct (lots of TRS hint's and DIY stuff on this here about alignment, deflection, gearing for you, etc.) and #2 getting the primary correct for you and your sled (track, weight, hp, etc.),,, because now you have an EFFICIENT secondary.
If you eliminate worrying-thinking about the secondary it makes it much easier. Correct R's from the front at all mph positions of the flyweight.

Tony recommends Lightening weights fitted correctly (easiest with most info available) but this secondary will also work with other multi-position adjustable weights if you take the time and IF they offer the adjustability needed.

I used the TP HHer's 'cause it is what I had (not the best profile for a low geared mountain sled and definitely not the best fitting weight out there) and have standard 2 step primary sheaves. 1 gram, when I was close, would make 150 to 200 r's difference and 1 gram in the wrong spot would make the belt slip. In the end I finished dividing a 3/4 of a gram into 2 different locations.
It ended up perfect. I mean zero clutch maintenance for 5 rides reusing an old belt that took the previous 5 rides to "re-break" in lol and I never had clutching that stayed this cool (couldn't warm your hands on them if you needed too) in nut deep heavy spring snow like this does now. No question on performance because I've had the sled so long to compare to all the newest "game changers".

Point is,,, the secondary theory that Tony applied 'til he got it right,,, works. You just need to wrap your head around it and trust it.

Norway · May 4, 2017

geo said:
I've played with this on the N/A pro Norway.

I have 48/34F and 46/32F on my cuts (reverse cut is standard Team and have no issues 'cause reverse is to just get out of the truck for me).

I ended with 46/32F and 100/150 spring because my goal was lightest spring (it's a "feel" thing for me).

The most important thing is to TRUST this secondary set-up (you can change secondary spring a bit for what you like in feel) as proven and simply focus on #1 getting the mechanical set-up correct (lots of TRS hint's and DIY stuff on this here about alignment, deflection, gearing for you, etc.) and #2 getting the primary correct for you and your sled (track, weight, hp, etc.),,, because now you have an EFFICIENT secondary.
If you eliminate worrying-thinking about the secondary it makes it much easier. Correct R's from the front at all mph positions of the flyweight.

Tony recommends Lightening weights fitted correctly (easiest with most info available) but this secondary will also work with other multi-position adjustable weights if you take the time and IF they offer the adjustability needed.

I used the TP HHer's 'cause it is what I had (not the best profile for a low geared mountain sled and definitely not the best fitting weight out there) and have standard 2 step primary sheaves. 1 gram, when I was close, would make 150 to 200 r's difference and 1 gram in the wrong spot would make the belt slip. In the end I finished dividing a 3/4 of a gram into 2 different locations.
It ended up perfect. I mean zero clutch maintenance for 5 rides reusing an old belt that took the previous 5 rides to "re-break" in lol and I never had clutching that stayed this cool (couldn't warm your hands on them if you needed too) in nut deep heavy spring snow like this does now. No question on performance because I've had the sled so long to compare to all the newest "game changers".

Point is,,, the secondary theory that Tony applied 'til he got it right,,, works. You just need to wrap your head around it and trust it.

Great info geo, as always. Appreciate!

I guess one big thing for me (and others?) would be the best choice of adjustable weights? Since the TCP weights are becoming hard to get, I would like to find an adjustable set that has the same profile and weight distribution (empty).
Then heel can be filed down if to big I guess?

Put the pro gears on tonight and will change out the gold spring with a 100/290 just to get the r's up a bit. But I should really get a set of 68's so anyone reading this and have'em for sale, shoot me a message!

RS

goridedoo · May 4, 2017

Sounds IS has a weight that is similar... but not the same.

TCP has 68.1 and 68.2... and on up available. $95 a set I believe, $80 for multiple sets.

Spaarky · May 4, 2017

There is not a weight in the market that acts exactly the same. The Lightning2's are adjustable. They have a hump on them that could be machined off to match the originals. We haven't tried them because TCP won't throw us a bone and give us a reduced cost set to cut up.

If it was me I would buy 3 sets of 68s and have them machined down. Most adjustable weights have too large of variation in the weights. You are making 2 and 3 gram adjustments. It's too far of a swing.

Is Tony's NA set up for a Pro listed on here yet?

Geo had good thoughts. Sorry don't agree with the HH's... But I understand the dilemma. Tory tried different weights this winter, Tony has tried piles of weights, his buddy Justin has tried. They all came back to LW's.

geo · May 6, 2017

Ya you can Sparky lol. They work perfect for me but I wouldn't want to sell someone on them. But, as you said "2 or 3 gram swings" do not cut it even with Lightening weights.
HHer's saving grace for me was .2 gr changes possible and their profile is about the exact opposite of Lightenings lol.
Started with 100/310 spring and 68.3 gr and finished with 95/200 61.8 gr. All set-ups gave the same r's but only one worked with the secondary I trusted.

The thing what should be explained is "TRS clutching" is a "package" of set-up and parts, not just weights and a helix.
No "free lunch" with out the work eh.

Norway · Dec 31, 2017

So, anyone experiment more on the N/A side of this clutching? Just got started on my season, so will chime in in when I have done some more testing with my new and lighter weights.

Pulled 8100+ on the first ride with 70gr weights, but wonder if I'm slipping a bit and need to clean clutches..

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volcano buster · Dec 31, 2017

He gave me a recommendation which I installed.

I'm running more weight than he thought, but I'm still hitting 8300 max. My problem is secondary heat. I was out in about 24" of dry fluff breaking trail for another sled. Ran for a couple miles on the road (mostly WOT) and stopped at a junction. Pulled the side panel and the secondary was so hot I could throw snow on it and it would melt super fast. Not turn to steam but there was no way I could put my hand on it. Since I have a dual angle helix, I'm tempted to try the other slot before changing to a different spring.

Norway · Jan 1, 2018

volcano buster said:
He gave me a recommendation which I installed.

Care to get specific?

TRS · Jan 1, 2018

Here is where I'm at on the AXYS today. We have 3 of them. Two have almost 400 miles on each of these setups.
We put these miles on since Thursday in waist to chest deep snow riding the Beartooths. Running through a tank of fuel in a couple of hours. To the pin riding, permagrin. No blown or frayed belts. Clutches warm to hot, absolutely.
Have two setups that are working very well. One with Lightning weights and one with Speedwerx L weights that have a heel cut for Rogers Sport Center(available there)

8-10,000'
42-32F helix
125-175 Red/Gray Venom spring
Speedwerx L custom heel cut weight(empty) 61g
110-290 Polaris primary spring

46-32F helix
125-175 Red/Gray Venom spring
Lightning weights 61g
120-320 Stock spring

Edit: they are 2018 3" chaincase models
The lightning kit has an x3 track geared at 20-43. There will be an x3 on mine shortly.

Norway · Jan 2, 2018

TRS said:
Here is where I'm at on the AXYS today. We have 3 of them. Two have almost 400 miles on each of these setups.
We put these miles on since Thursday in waist to chest deep snow riding the Beartooths. Running through a tank of fuel in a couple of hours. To the pin riding, permagrin. No blown or frayed belts. Clutches warm to hot, absolutely.
Have two setups that are working very well. One with Lightning weights and one with Speedwerx L weights that have a heel cut for Rogers Sport Center(available there)

8-10,000'
42-32F helix
125-175 Red/Gray Venom spring
Speedwerx L custom heel cut weight(empty) 61g
110-290 Polaris primary spring

46-32F helix
125-175 Red/Gray Venom spring
Lightning weights 61g
120-320 Stock spring

Edit: they are 2018 3" chaincase models

Those weights are light!

Admitted, I run @ sea-level, but being able to pull 70gr weights with 100-200 rear spring, 46-32F and 110-290 sounds a lot compared to this??

Edit: I do have an issue with reverse sometimes.. maybe another rear spring is in order?
Stock 155 2,6 track and 7t drivers, pro gears.

TRS · Jan 2, 2018

Norway said:
Those weights are light!

Admitted, I run @ sea-level, but being able to pull 70gr weights with 100-200 rear spring, 46-32F and 110-290 sounds a lot compared to this??

Edit: I do have an issue with reverse sometimes.. maybe another rear spring is in order?
Stock 155 2,6 track and 7t drivers, pro gears.

In actuality, it's only one gram less than what Polaris recommends for elevation change in the 10 series weights.

Norway · Jan 2, 2018

TRS said:
In actuality, it's only one gram less than what Polaris recommends for elevation change in the 10 series weights.

I hear you on the weight, but was thinking that I was to heavy and should try around 68gr. Just could not see that working when the rest of the setup is so close to yours and it seems to pull past 8K rpm with 70??

Might that driven spring be a Clue? 125 to start with should help reverse work and down to 175 from 200 could let it shift more, letting lighter weights work?

Of course, I'll try the 68s anyway. Not much hassle and it would be actual R&D, not just theory.

TRS · Jan 2, 2018

Norway said:
I hear you on the weight, but was thinking that I was to heavy and should try around 68gr. Just could not see that working when the rest of the setup is so close to yours and it seems to pull past 8K rpm with 70??

Might that driven spring be a Clue? 125 to start with should help reverse work and down to 175 from 200 could let it shift more, letting lighter weights work?

Of course, I'll try the 68s anyway. Not much hassle and it would be actual R&D, not just theory.

Driven spring works well with lighter weight. Also let’s it shift and eliminated the flat, hit a wall feeling.

wellfed777 · Jan 3, 2018

hey Tony
is the different helix #s on the sled with lightning weights
because of the weights or gearing ? both ?

thanks

TRS · Jan 4, 2018

wellfed777 said:
hey Tony
is the different helix #s on the sled with lightning weights
because of the weights or gearing ? both ?

thanks

I believe both.
I will have another 42-32f and 40-32f helix here today, and will test them on the lightning setup.
The lightning setup is my mule. We know that works.
Will also give the 40-32 a try on the Speedwerx setup.
Sure feels good to be out testing again.
Edit: the Axys and pro are truly different.

tdbaugha · Jan 4, 2018

When do you try a 30 finish again? Like a 40/30, trying to get to the 100-150 spring...

On my turbo I run a 42/32 with the 100-200. The next test for me would a 42/30 I think. But I've lost track of how many rides it's been since I've blown a belt.

Merlin · Jan 4, 2018

Now that's not something you hear very often around here!

You guys(TRS clutch camp) need to put one of those timer thingys at the bottom with your signature to indicate your last belt replacement. LOL

Seriously though, it's been interesting to read your progress over the last couple of years.

Probably some of the best clutch tuning info. here to date!

tdbaugha said:
I've lost track of how many rides it's been since I've blown a belt.

Spaarky · Jan 4, 2018

I am just glad to see Tony out riding and testing again. Hopefully I have the privelage of being lapped again by him this year!!!!

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