Supercharged Pro

Iceman56 · Sep 10, 2014

Got to take a look at the Pro supercharger at Haydays and talk to the guy who owned it from speedwerx. Looks like a nice setup similar mounting area as the Cats except intake of the the charger is opposite of the cats it goes toward the middle of the sled and hooks into stock hood intake. Actually looks similar how a silber or Push turbo is mounted. The charger has short plumbing to a standalone Water to Air air box with heat exchanger in tunnel. The charger runs on a cogged belt don't know why but the Cats at the show were not cogged belts. Comes with Speedwerxs can, guy claimed there is nothing done to stock pipe.

Now couple big thing that stood out, this sled ran the Vipec but they tested back to back with other sled with Bullydog and said there wasn't much difference and to keep price down they will be running the BD.
Carls Cycle will be the exclusive dealer for these kits, and supposedly the only place you can buy them, you can't even purchase them directly through Speedwerx. This guy told me that Carls have been testing this setup with him all year and according to him they are dropping there Boondocker dealership and selling these. Claims Boost for boost they are about the same power as BD kit with way better bottom end. With W/A intercooler this year Carls is gonna set them up for around 10psi on pump gas.

I guess if Carls is setting these up they must work, and if they actually did drop BD after testing the Super head to head with them that says something right there. Price on kit was $6,500.
Be fun to see how they turn out this year, with Carls building them I would think there would be quite a few on the snow this year.

Anthony Oberti · Sep 11, 2014

Most of your info is correct minus a few HUGE points. Pound for pound the turbo still beats the charger on top every single time. Yes the charger is better on bottom.....probably better than the 900 on bottom. And lastly, Carls is NOT dropping Boondockers turbos. All of their RMSHA racers are running BD turbos, and myself, along with 2 other friends, will all be running 2015 BD Pros from Carls this season.

edavis0202 · Sep 12, 2014

Anthony Oberti said:
Most of your info is correct minus a few HUGE points. Pound for pound the turbo still beats the charger on top every single time. Yes the charger is better on bottom.....probably better than the 900 on bottom. And lastly, Carls is NOT dropping Boondockers turbos. All of their RMSHA racers are running BD turbos, and myself, along with 2 other friends, will all be running 2015 BD Pros from Carls this season.

I spoke with a rep from Carls and didn't want to say anything, but now that's the cats out of the bag I will express what I was told.

From the sounds of it, Carls didn't have much time on the supercharger and were hesitant to have them on their shelf. I'm assuming that changed now that they are selling them.

For Speedwerx to say they are dropping BD for these is a huge statement and if I was Carls, I would be dropping the supercharger today. If some thing is too good to be true it usually is.

I would be happy to see how my BD runs against a supercharger this year:face-icon-small-coo

Iceman56 · Sep 12, 2014

Anthony Oberti said:
Most of your info is correct minus a few HUGE points. Pound for pound the turbo still beats the charger on top every single time. Yes the charger is better on bottom.....probably better than the 900 on bottom. And lastly, Carls is NOT dropping Boondockers turbos. All of their RMSHA racers are running BD turbos, and myself, along with 2 other friends, will all be running 2015 BD Pros from Carls this season.

I was hoping you would see this and chime in... Hope nobody took what I wrote for Gospel I was just repeating what I was told. I asked him a couple times about Carls dropping BD cause I didn't believe it.

Sounds like you have rode one? So boost for boost how much difference is there? Is it huge, or somewhat close?

Anthony Oberti · Sep 12, 2014

I was planning on riding one and ran out of time. I have 5 close friends that rode them, and of course have talked to Jack numerous times about this. The SC is only going to run 8-10lbs and will be on pump fuel. The SC beats the 900on bottom, mid and top. The SC beats the turbo on bottom, but turbo wins every time on top, lb for lb. A turbo can adjust boost with the controller, the SC will be set at 8-10lbs this year, dependent on the pulley system used. Lets say the SC and turbo are both at 10lbs, and a Turbo, SC and 900 raced. The turbo would be first, the SC 2nd and 900 last......on a long drag up a hill. Basically, the SC is the middle ground on top between a turbo and 900, but has more bottom end. Carls is only selling about 20-25 SC kits this year so they control this new set up tightly. They ran it all spring and has extensive testing on it. It works, period, and should be awesome. I imagine after a full season on it, in all conditions and temps, it will be sold in larger quantities the following year.

gus bohne · Sep 17, 2014

anthony, we did a shootout day with the sc cat. and an 800 turbo doo
up to 5 psi the sc was quicker thru 300 feet. after that it was behind.
after 8 psi it was behind from the launch till let off the turbo took it from start to end every time.
now if you take a really poor tune on a turbo you can see the sc has a transient response advantange and looks much better , they tried and I will say it was snappy like a good set of v force reeds do to a sled. Its a middle of the road level, much like an aero. it has limits. some can live within some cannot.

be fun seeing if any of them pan out to be what the end user really thought they were getting..

minecat · Sep 17, 2014

I have built my fare share of mod sleds for the mountains, and I decided to get me a super pro so I can see for my self first hand if they are what they say they are! I believe carls is a very reputable dealer and think that there must be some merit to what is said about the super if they are pushing it. But like I wrote I will no first hand in the not to distant future!!

wfieldin · Sep 18, 2014

SC Pro

minecat said:
I have built my fare share of mod sleds for the mountains, and I decided to get me a super pro so I can see for my self first hand if they are what they say they are! I believe carls is a very reputable dealer and think that there must be some merit to what is said about the super if they are pushing it. But like I wrote I will no first hand in the not to distant future!!

Did you order a whole brand new sled or are you putting a SC on your current one? How much is it going to run either way? Thanks

minecat · Sep 18, 2014

whole sled set up ready to ride with some other mods besides super 19k

allblowdup · Sep 19, 2014

Does anyone knoe how they have addressed the issues with loosing boost out the ex port after the intake closes? Turbos do it with backpressure. If you just restrict the exhaust it kills the bottome end.

gus bohne · Sep 19, 2014

allblowdup said:
Does anyone knoe how they have addressed the issues with loosing boost out the ex port after the intake closes? Turbos do it with backpressure. If you just restrict the exhaust it kills the bottome end.

that was never an issue. just an old wives tale.

mike_s · Sep 19, 2014

gus bohne said:
that was never an issue. just an old wives tale.

If that's the case, then why do we consider pipe pressure when tuning? Not being a smart *** or anything, a genuine question. It seems to me, when essentially the intake half of your engine is at low altitude and the exhaust half is still at high altitude, there is some considerable amount of power thrown away. I don't claim to know, but I don't think the inverse pressure wave inside the stock pipe would be enough to push back the extra pressure the supercharger put in the crankcase, thus some would be wasted.

Or, am I completely off base?

Sent From God Knows Where...

TurboM700 · Sep 19, 2014

allblowdup said:
Does anyone knoe how they have addressed the issues with loosing boost out the ex port after the intake closes? Turbos do it with backpressure. If you just restrict the exhaust it kills the bottome end.

They do nothing there lies the problem!!!! They work great up to x psi after that they are a waste.

For 6500 bucks I would buy a turbo hands down.

gus bohne · Sep 19, 2014

we reference drive pressure vs heat.
higher drive pressures helped make low flowing turbos look better. the old brand x needed 7 plus psi over boost to make decent looking power but was hard on pistons pipes and reeds. the newer gtx's need no more than 4 psi over to make world record power, run cold, and not be a muther to tune.

If you put a potato in a turbo pipe it dies. so no back pressure is NOT what is making a turbo work beyond the supers range.

the superchargers issue has always been lack of airflow vs engine demand.
so putting the potato in the pipe LOOKED like the answer, it really was just a tool to show the lack of airflow.
turbos gain flow with speed and rpm changes. supers are limited to what they can attain thru the drive method and rpm.

they need fuel flow to trail off rather than continue to climb as airflow slows.

no different than comparing a small 144 roots to a top fuel ssi blower.
they both can make the PSI gauge go up when run, but one makes more airflow than the other. just like a pump..oops

it will be fun out west for some folks.glad to see the truth is out no unrealistic stories.
have fun with them guys. :smow:

this is also the end for me guys, have to pay to teach from this post number on

Idcatman3 · Sep 19, 2014

mike_s said:
If that's the case, then why do we consider pipe pressure when tuning? Not being a smart *** or anything, a genuine question. It seems to me, when essentially the intake half of your engine is at low altitude and the exhaust half is still at high altitude, there is some considerable amount of power thrown away. I don't claim to know, but I don't think the inverse pressure wave inside the stock pipe would be enough to push back the extra pressure the supercharger put in the crankcase, thus some would be wasted.

Or, am I completely off base?

Sent From God Knows Where...

Pressure drop through the exhaust is related to the mass flow, so if there is more flow going through the engine, the exhaust pressure will be higher as well.

If someone told me that it did work, that would be my guess as to why. Increased flow>increased pipe pressure>pipe works relatively normally.

http://www.efunda.com/formulae/fluids/calc_orifice_flowmeter.cfm#calc

allblowdup · Sep 19, 2014

Ok well this is what I know. I have ran a Roots style SC on a two stroke before and it made boost from Idle up. I would have 10 psi at 4000 rpm. Made 5 hp more than the stocker and went through fuel like crazy. The problem WAS/IS that when the intake port/transfers close the exhaust port is still open. Your boost goes right out the exhaust port. Yes the tuned pipe backcharges the mix some but no more than the stocker would so very little power is gained. Restrict the pipe and and the pipes backcharge pressure wave goes up and 40 hp was the gain. Problem was at low rpm although I had boost the port timing is not good and with the extra back pressure it had no power.

On to turbos. They are an infinetaly variable pressure regulator that uses inputs from boost pressure and exhaust pressure as far as the ex side goes.
No matter what boost you run. The balance between intake pressure and exhaust pressure needs to maintained otherwise power/effeciency goes out the window. Yes you can have the balance move slighly one way or the other to help keep the pistons cooler during boost operation but a balance still needs to be there.

If you don't have something to create the balance in a SC two stroke it will not run well.

I am not saying that these sc two strokes don't run well. I am just wondering if anyone knows how they dealt with this issue.

mike_s · Sep 19, 2014

I see some gains in designing a supercharger-specific pipe to help with that situation, but I still see a sacrifice in bottom end power.

Sent From God Knows Where...

Idcatman3 · Sep 19, 2014

I would agree.

Somebody solve the dilemma by putting a pressure gauge on the stock pipe, and sticking it on a supercharged sled, and seeing what it reads.

allblowdup · Sep 22, 2014

Ok here is a bone for all the Vipec savy guys running around out here. Since the vipec is very controllable and can have inputs and outputs that are taylored by the operator. One could use the boost pressure, pipe pressure, etc to control a exhaust restrictor valve in the pipe.

Vi-PEC Powersports · Sep 27, 2014

Exactly.

allblowdup said:
Ok here is a bone for all the Vipec savy guys running around out here. Since the vipec is very controllable and can have inputs and outputs that are taylored by the operator. One could use the boost pressure, pipe pressure, etc to control a exhaust restrictor valve in the pipe.

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