What do you want from your fuel controler?

Wheel House Motorsports · Jul 5, 2012

I would like to start an open discussion with what exactly it is people want from there fuel controllers on their turbo EFI snowmobile.

As i think we all know there are many many ways to get to the same end result, so i DO not want this to turn into a xxx is better then xxx thread or i will have it locked, it is not productive and just promotes more misinformation and decreases opportunity for product improvements.

I am trying to bring this up as i feel there is currently a huge amount of information, misinformation, and confusion regarding what it is that people actually are getting from there fueling solutions and what it is they want the controller to actually do.

joshkoltes · Jul 5, 2012

instant throttle response, no dead spots, and 8200 rpm

philsummers21 · Jul 5, 2012

Plug and play closed loop system. Automatically adjusts to a set a/f based on throttle, rpm, boost, air temp, elevation, etc, etc. Ability to advance and retard timing throughout the whole rpm range. And a nice price tag. And no laptops

R_8_N · Jul 5, 2012

I want it to not make my sled not blow up :face-icon-small-ton

Are you asking about what "we" want out of one because you don't know which one to get or are you developing one of your own? Kinda confused on what YOU are looking for here. Just a simple conversation?

There is already 2 really good ones out there now.....brand V and Brand B since ya dont want it to turn into a this and that thread.

Jonce · Jul 6, 2012

In regards to the Dobeck boxes that I have used in the past:
For starters, how about a good sealed box that doesn't have moisture issues and has a secured boost reference line (barbed fitting or some other type of positive lock fastener) that doesn't come off in the back country. Also, plug and play would be nice vs splicing wires. Maybe an option for the user to update the fuel mappings via usb connection on the laptop vs sending it back to the dealer/tuner to get it reflashed while waiting 1-2 weeks.

Closed Loop would be sweet to have.

SLDHVN · Jul 6, 2012

good clean wiring, something easy and more durable to mount with(IE no velcro). bigger buttons, bigger screen, built in gauges, the ability to add notes to maps

snow4shover · Jul 6, 2012

Well I think this year will be really interesting. Dobeck has some new things that we are releasing but it just makes the controller more complicated and our private labels have to be willing to develop the code. I really worry about making the controller too complicated for people to tune. Justin Silber has already been testing one his razor. There will be options for on board pressure...which makes it hard to be 100% waterproof.... OR external pressure sensors like a GM 3 bar which allows for a lot better water proofing. I will tell you that I dunk every controller that comes back for warranty into water and they all work fine.

You guys should check out Silber's YouTube channel. He is using the Gen 4 on his Razor with a turbo without a boost reference. He can run up to 14 lbs right now. The razor has ran everything from E85 to Race Gas.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZP1dTOpvyUc&feature=plcp

Sorry not the greatest video. I'll try to get some more.

IMO...The majority of problems on Pro Kits from last was issues with the sled. Every Pro Kit that I worked on here at Dobeck...people showed up complaining about the box and that was never the issue. We had jacked up settings, fuel pumps, injector issues, a ton of TPS calibration/failures, clutching issues,over torquing of knock sensor and TPS in handle failures.....which we now make a (Plug N Play) bypass for.

Wheel House Motorsports · Jul 6, 2012

Josh, i find it interesting that 1 of your points is completely non fuel related and one is very partial, this says exactly what shover is talking about, the problems are not the controller. they are elsewhere and it is the easiest thing to blame. controller has nothing to do with the RPM you pull, thats clutching, and turbo system issues if you cant hit rpm. and instant throttle response is another... yes fueling causes issues but if your turbo system is not working properly and clutching is off, you can take a perfect fuel map and still make it suck and be hard to ride.

as for the gen 4 stuff.. its looking real good. but is real nice to be able to adjust and see what mode your in ON your gauge and tune from there. also the buttons are a heck of a lot nicer to touch.

as for all this moisture fear, seriously guys, lay off the koolaid. the onboard boost sensors are really the biggest issue regarding the sealing a dobeck controller, very hard to do. external MAP solves that issues, just more cost and parts. but i have firsthand seen these things sit underwater and function perfectly for a long while, so long you will have motor issues trying to run in these conditions:face-icon-small-coo

R_8_N. im not looking for anything more then some good open discussion and trying to dispell some myths and help people figure out what it is they need and want to get done... as well as how they can get there. I just see tons of bandwagon hopping and lots of ignorant consumers throwing money hoping to get something that works for them. Heck, i run boosted carbs and will take them over fuel injection any day. just trying to help facilitate education.

jsandgren10 · Jul 6, 2012

I will have to say I used silbers box most of the season while it worked good the bottom end was never as snappy as I thought it could be. And any real cold morning day the box would act up with boost signal, till finally it must have failed because it would hang a secondary injector wide open and flood it out. I disconnected it and it idled fine, then switched over to a boost it box mainly for simplicity and now the throttle response is insane for a turbo sled. I didn't get enough Time to dial it in since my afr gauge went out so looking forward to finishing it next season.

The doebeck box was easy to dial in and I ran one on my apex I was just looking for a bit more on my pro.

Wheel House Motorsports · Jul 6, 2012

just curious on the boost it setup on the pros for clarification. are you touching your factory map sensor or JUST doing the auxilary injectors?

jsandgren10 · Jul 6, 2012

Ski-Dooin it said:
just curious on the boost it setup on the pros for clarification. are you touching your factory map sensor or JUST doing the auxilary injectors?

Yes you touch the factory map sensor. You have a unit called the TMAP interceptor which splices into the stock sensor so that that fuel is added to the primary injectors along with the secondary injectors when coming on and off boost to not lean it out. The sensor instead of being open to the air under the hood is hooked up through a boost line from the air box to have a boost only signal.

So there is some wire splicing and if you are running a silber turbo then I added boost signals from the air box for the map sensor and the xic box instead of pulling it from the little nipple that went to the doe beck box prior. The kit also has you remove the stock regulator and put one inline.

philsummers21 · Jul 6, 2012

Not to get into a A vs B thread as stated earlier but if you could take a boost-it kit and add the ability to add and pull timing Id be 110 % happy with their kit. As it is now i was 98% happy with the boost-it kit on my apex. If this Boondockers pro gives me any fits at all this winter it will be getting a boost-it kit as well. The boost-it kit is as close to a close loop system in my price range that i can get. full closed loop on idle-low boost (stock setup) Then once on boost then you just add fuel. Which tuning for boost is the absolute easiest to tune for.

Duke · Jul 6, 2012

I personally want something that is reliable, simple to use/tune(no laptop), fairly priced, and easy to diagnose if issues arise. I want customer support that puts the product through its paces in my kind of riding environment. I have to be able to do my own adjustment, I will NOT rely on someone else to make my sled run for me.

Wheel House Motorsports · Jul 7, 2012

it is good to see some old and current 4 stroke guys in here as you guys have been down the path of new, cool, exiting, feature packed stuff(RB3) and now how many people ditched that to go way simpler. the fueling stuff went through a few year cycle and it ended up coming back around to something very simple and reliable. and i feel like this might help the 2 stroke crowd from traveling the same road.

the tuning of a powerjet based system that doesnt mess with your stock injectors is very simple to do and producing good running 2 strokes it seems. makes me think this would be the ideal way to do most kits as then you have ample fuel available for low to BIG boost with one fuel setup and no having different levels, etc. just one size fits all fueling.

2XM3 · Jul 7, 2012

LOL very easy, a factory turbo sled that has warrenty where I can crank up the boost a bit and it runs perfect,just like my turbo cars do.

And yeah for a high percentage of guys you need a plug and play that the buyer can't touch or change at all, ie it works all by its lonesome self and comes ready to run on crap for fuel.....:face-icon-small-sho:face-icon-small-con:face-icon-small-win:face-icon-small-hap:rockon:

R_8_N · Jul 8, 2012

Timing is the biggest feature to really make the complete package and there is only one that does it. doing this allows you to run more boost with pump gas and I think thats what everyone is really chasing.

Vi-PEC Powersports · Jul 8, 2012

2XM3 said:
LOL very easy, a factory turbo sled that has warrenty where I can crank up the boost a bit and it runs perfect,just like my turbo cars do.

And yeah for a high percentage of guys you need a plug and play that the buyer can't touch or change at all, ie it works all by its lonesome self and comes ready to run on crap for fuel.....:face-icon-small-sho:face-icon-small-con:face-icon-small-win:face-icon-small-hap:rockon:

i have what you want!! a turbo kit with a locked PnP standalone ECU,failsafe mode and knock working(customized) and yes under warranty....OUPSSS i think i spelt the bean before i should!!!anyway......

Wheel House Motorsports · Jul 8, 2012

R_8_N said:
Timing is the biggest feature to really make the complete package and there is only one that does it. doing this allows you to run more boost with pump gas and I think thats what everyone is really chasing.

I dont doubt timing is a beneficial thing to adjust as i know it can be in the right aspect. what i worry is "stealing from peter to pay paul" so to speak, so you knock back the timing a bit, and can run more boost on the same gas, but now your starting your burn later in the cycle so it is less effective so yeah you get more boost but are you really making more power? boost is semi meaningless number to me for this exact reason it is very indirectly related to power. I guess until i could see very meaningful data to suggest that this was a worthwhile change, i wouldnt be shelling out my hard earned coin so i could run more boost on pump gas.

and precision, it is interesting you mention locked as i see more then one person who have issues with having to send things off if they want to change it. just a thought. for a lot it is a really good thing though, way to many people have no business trying to tune anything. just a thought.

philsummers21 · Jul 8, 2012

Add timing for quicker throttle response. Pull timing to make up for bad fuel. Only pull timing on tpp where the few hp lost will be un noticed

jsandgren10 · Jul 8, 2012

R_8_N said:
Timing is the biggest feature to really make the complete package and there is only one that does it. doing this allows you to run more boost with pump gas and I think thats what everyone is really chasing.

I don't think most turbo pro guys are going for max HP like the yammi days. It was shown by Neil what a sled can do on 8 psi with a good setup. I prefer more reliability with less HP than max HP and putting the engine more at risk to achieve a few ponies.

I like simplicity. I like standalone systems but as I have seen there are always still little gremlins that act up and is impossible to adjust or change without a laptop. With my cousin coming off his impulse nytro on standalone working a season trying to figure it out and turned out to be a bad base map got frustrating. With my apex at the time and the dobeck box I could always unhook it to see if it was the culrput where his you checked everything else then had to send the ecu off. Now with my pro I wanted even simpler since there is a lot to think and look at on a dobeck box vs my setup now. Not saying it is better or worse than a standalone system but useability is hands down easier than anything else I have used.

What do you want from your fuel controler?

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