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<< ALERT >>: Federal judge says Forest Service broke law not regulating Snowmobiles!!

sdsnocop

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It looks like WMC is done viewing and responding to this thread as long as he is a basic member (I assume the 75 post limit applies here too). I believe the fight to keep further restrictions on snowmobiling on forest lands needs to focus on advocating multiple use of those lands as well as the economic impact further restrictions will create. If you look at the USFS agencies Mission-Motto-Vision-Guilding Principles it identifies the some following points:
-"multiple-use management concept"
-"help states and communities to wisely use forests to promote rural economic development and quality rural environment"
-"recognize and accept that some conflict is natural and strive to deal with it proffessionally"
-"promote grassroots participation in decisions"
-"sensitive to the effects of our decisions on people"
The USFS was initially established to promote the sustainable harvest and management of our timber recources while allowing multiple use of those forest lands. The large number of different user groups with vastly different needs and perceptons have steered the agency away from that multiple use concept (in my opinion). Too many user groups want their right to use the forest as they see fit and want exclusive use of that resource. I believe we need to not focus on our right to ride forests lands but focus on getting back to a multiple use concept and the economic impact snowmobiling has on local communities as well as our nations economy.
There are too many different groups wanting their "right" to use forest lands as they wish. We need to focus on the compairative lasting impacts snowmobiling has on the forest resource as compaired to other uses such as OHV, equestrian, mountain bike, dispersed camping, high traffic hiking trails, ect. which I believe and can be proven has more of a lasting physical impact on the forest than responsible back country snowmobiling. Our physical lasting impact on the forest resource is comparable to back country skiing and snowshoeing. We also need to advocate minimizing actual conflicts with other users. I say "actual" conflicts such as buzzing skiiers, tearing up groomed ski trails, staying out of "no snowmobile areas" ect, as compaired to "percieved" conflicts such as seeing tracks, being heard or seen. Those wishing to avoid the perceived conficts with snowmobile use have the wilderness areas and "no snowmobile zones" to pursue their recreational activities. If a person wanted to live in a place of quiet and solitude they would not move to downtown NYC and then petition the ban of motor vehicles on the street, they would move to an area that had little to no traffic.
We need to recruite local businesses who benefit economically from local and visiting snowmobilers who use the forest to back country ride. They need to be aware of the impact of severely restricted backcountry riding will have to their way of life. Even in the Black Hills national forest where trail riding is popular back country riding is an important aspect of what the forest has to offer and its ellimination would have drastic impact on the local economy. Large companies such as the snowmobile big four, enclosed trailer manufacturers, the big three pickup manufacturers, plus smaller companies who make backcountry specialty equipment and aftermarket parts have a stake in the decision to further restrict back country riding. It is well documented that the sales of mountain specific snowmobiles takes up a large market share and probably the only segment of the snowmobile industry showing significant growth. How many skiiers are transporting their equipment in large diesel pickups pulling an enclosed trailer.
The Forest Service and others who use forest lands need to realize and understand that back country mountain riding is an unique recreational opportunity that can only be found on forest lands in a handfull of western states. The US and Canada has hundereds of thousand miles of trails located throughout both country's but the opportunity to back country mountain ride is very limited.
 
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smwizzz

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simple

It looks like WMC is done viewing and responding to this thread as long as he is a basic member (I assume the 75 post limit applies here too). I believe the fight to keep further restrictions on snowmobiling on forest lands needs to focus on advocating multiple use of those lands as well as the economic impact further restrictions will create. If you look at the USFS agencies Mission-Motto-Vision-Guilding Principles it identifies the some following points:
-"multiple-use management concept"
-"help states and communities to wisely use forests to promote rural economic development and quality rural environment"
-"recognize and accept that some conflict is natural and strive to deal with it proffessionally"
-"promote grassroots participation in decisions"
-"sensitive to the effects of our decisions on people"
The USFS was initially established to promote the sustainable harvest and management of our timber recources while allowing multiple use of those forest lands. The large number of different user groups with vastly different needs and perceptons have steered the agency away from that multiple use concept (in my opinion). Too many user groups want their right to use the forest as they see fit and want exclusive use of that resource. I believe we need to not focus on our right to ride forests lands but focus on getting back to a multiple use concept and the economic impact snowmobiling has on local communities as well as our nations economy.
There are too many different groups wanting their "right" to use forest lands as they wish. We need to focus on the compairative lasting impacts snowmobiling has on the forest resource as compaired to other uses such as OHV, equestrian, mountain bike, dispersed camping, high traffic hiking trails, ect. which I believe and can be proven has more of a lasting physical impact on the forest than responsible back country snowmobiling. Our physical lasting impact on the forest resource is comparable to back country skiing and snowshoeing. We also need to advocate minimizing actual conflicts with other users. I say "actual" conflicts such as buzzing skiiers, tearing up groomed ski trails, staying out of "no snowmobile areas" ect, as compaired to "percieved" conflicts such as seeing tracks, being heard or seen. Those wishing to avoid the perceived conficts with snowmobile use have the wilderness areas and "no snowmobile zones" to pursue their recreational activities. If a person wanted to live in a place of quiet and solitude they would not move to downtown NYC and then petition the ban of motor vehicles on the street, they would move to an area that had little to no traffic.
We need to recruite local businesses who benefit economically from local and visiting snowmobilers who use the forest to back country ride. They need to be aware of the impact of severely restricted backcountry riding will have to their way of life. Even in the Black Hills national forest where trail riding is popular back country riding is an important aspect of what the forest has to offer and its illimination would have drastic impact on the local economy. Large companies such as the snowmobile big four, enclosed trailer manufacturers, the big three pickup manufacturers, plus smaller companies who make backcountry specialty equipment and aftermarket parts have a stake in the decision to further restrict back country riding. It is well documented that the sales of mountain specific snowmobiles takes up a large market share and probably the only segment of the snowmobile industry showing significant growth. How many skiiers are transporting their equipment in large diesel pickups pulling an enclosed trailer.
The Forest Service and others who use forest lands need to realize and understand that back country mountain riding is an unique recreational opportunity that can only be found on forest lands in a handfull of western states. The US and Canada has hundereds of thousand miles of trails located throughout both country's but the opportunity to back country mountain ride is very limited.
\

Well spoken!!!

Thank You!!!
 

smwizzz

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No

If anyone wants info on him I can get it for you. He is a real gem and should be ignored so he will just go away.

Please don't waste your words on this guy. Its not worth your breath. If we all just put that time into writting a letter to your local forest service district or something constructive. The local forest service has been very receptive and wants to here from snowmobilers.


Not required. This is the exact thing he wants. Stir up the pot and leave. You hit the nail on the head when you said write a letter. Better yet support a local club or state/provincial organization. $$$ well spent. I ride a day or two in Revy but give them my membership every year. I support the Valemount club and once again I ride a day or two there a year. My riding is spent in many other areas. These are the guys who keep the areas open and have the people to help the cause. They are members of the BCSA. If you can't help the cause with labor, give some $$$ to fight the legal battles.

Some real good and valid points here... thumbs up peeps!!!

Cheers...

May the snowdust be at your back!!! :face-icon-small-hap:face-icon-small-hap:face-icon-small-hap
 

kidwoo

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It is not 'me', it is now the Federal Court decision upholding long-ignored law.

Interesting how you jump on the 'mine is bigger' line of argument. Yep, I can do also. I have been skitouring since Gerald Ford was President and riding snomos since Carter. Where I go to skitour with my friends and family- often using snomos to get out there- we avoid anyone else, in our few special places. But as I said, I saw the situation in reverse of what you fear. I watched the mountains taken over by snomos, very completely in some places. So I and 'we' do not believe that ALL of the Forest outside Wilderness should be open to snowmobile riding. We want our share. We acknowledge that yep snomos have a legitimate place, not our personal thing to go ride offroad but we realize other folks want to use the Forest as well....

It's like talking to a wall. Mine is not bigger, just more intelligent. If you think for a second that I don't get annoyed by sled tracks where I want to ski (often time my own tracks :D) then you must not believe I'm a skier.

What's your beef with wilderness man? Why would you NOT want to ski there? There's some awesome terrain in those places. And 'your share' is EVERYTHING. Wilderness, non-wilderness, logging land, designated FS property. You can ski ALL OF IT. YOU HAVE YOUR SHARE. You're just too dumb or too lazy to find fresh tracks.

But guess what. It's 2013. There are more skiers, more sledders, more motorists clogging up highways, more people at my favorite bar, more people going to events I used to like, and more people ripping up the same chutes I used to skin to 10 days after a storm and get fresh tracks. I don't throw a tantrum, I just look at google earth and make plans. I don't give a rat's behind about how long you've been hiking. Like I said before, if you can't figure out how to get away from sleds (which I myself deliberately do a hundred times a winter), then you just suck at it. The world doesn't need to come to you. Sometimes you need to go out and visit the world.
 
S

snoman681

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we all pay taxes the same to maintain the national forests of this country it is un lawful for a judge to say who can go where with what. Back country snomobilling is becoming a very popular way of exploring the national forest. with the new technoligy we are able to enjoy more of the millions of miles of forest we pay for but never see. Backcountry snowmobiling is a multi billion doller industry employing millions of people in cities and in rural towns all across this country. I see a majority of skiers using snowmobiles to acess the the backcountry. If skiers want there own slopes they can ski in wilderness areas where we cannot ride already. like Cooke City for example Which is rediculas by the way snowmobiles dont hurt anything in the winter months. If you want to here more just ask i'll be glad to tell them whats on my mind.
 

Scott

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For sure it's not the young hip boarders and skiers. It IS the old crusty ones....MOST of the time.
 

winter brew

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I've never understood this friction between human powered recreation and snowmobilers.....actually I dont think there really is much friction, but simply a very vocal minority that has been saying the same thing about snowmobilers for the 40 years that Ive been riding. Actually its better today than it was in the 70's and 80's. snowmobilers have shown they are as responsible as any other user group, dont harm the landscape and bring much needed financial support to an otherwise difficult time of year for many businesses across the country.
Like anything else, snowmobiles have evolved to be MUCH quieter and cleaner than in years past....there are a few rebels that choose to be loud or violate wilderness boundaries, but that is getting rarer every year.
I have spoken with many skiers over the years and the vast majority are thankful for sledders and the trails we have built and groomed, also for our tracks to follow in deep snow. Those skiers/shoers that dont like this have many areas that snowmobiles have been restricted from using....and those areas are growing every year, so I dont see why these people continue to complain except for the sake of attracting attention to a non-issue. Is it simply the sight of someone else in YOUR territory that bothers you? I'm not at all offended by the sight of snowshoers and skiers. It seems that sledders are the more tolerant and generous group, yet made out to be the bad guy...at least compared to this vocal minority.
 

vdo1948

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Winterbrew (and others), I think Kim Raap, who some of you may know from his trails work in Wyoming, South Dakota and other areas, hit the nail on the head at one of our club meetings this year. He stated that the leaders of the Greenies organizations will never stop this fight and here's why. Most of these guys (and gals) are being paid big bucks to lead these organizations. If they back down (or if they completely win) they are out of a job. Their cash cow dries up. This is really where the problem lies. The leaders are incentivized to keep the fight alive. If they have to twist the truth, if they have to make up issues and causes, that's no big deal to them because it puts food in their mouths and gas in their Mercedes and Gulfstreams. They are really no different than the brokers on Wall Street who come up with semi-legal ways to invest your money so they can take more off the top without caring whether you lose your shirt. If we ever want to stop this business we need to cut off the head (stop the leaders) somehow. Until we do that it will never end.

My $.02
 
B

BikerPepe`

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Even though I'm coming in late to this topic, I just wanted to ad another angle to the cause for snomo-freedom. I read the majority of this thread... and skimmed much, but I don't think I saw anyone bring up my argument.


I only recently returned to the sport after growing up with it. I am an amputee (l,b.k.) with ongoing complications since '96. I'm not one of the lucky gimps who can run a marathon or ski or even hike a few miles... due to ongoing complications that have caused me to go on SSDI and suffer 9 different surgeries & slow recoveries in my 17 yrs. as an amputee.

I CANNOT ski. I CANNOT snowshoe... hell, I can't even hike very far in the summer time. The non-motorized sports & other activities that allow most able bodies folks to enjoy the great outdoors are NOT AN OPTION for so many disabled folks like myself.

SNOWMOBILING IS! My snowmobile (an old/affordable '04 KC/AC) allows me to get up in the hills, to enjoy the views, take in the fresh air, see some of the nature that my taxes (purchase) help pay to keep in existence. It not only allows me access that would otherwise be completely impossible (if not for motorized access) it helps keep my body in shape (very important issue, when you spend a 1/2 day working and the whole next day recovering on the couch) and my mind from depression during those winter months when riding my Harley isn't a safe option.
One of the two guys that helped get me back in the sport is paralyzed from the waist down and his enthusiasm and ability to ride and enjoy the forest lands was inspirational to me. Unfortunately, we had a parting of the ways... for personality reasons, but the point still stands. People like us would be completely locked out of the National Forest during the long winter months, if not for our snowmobiles.

And for anyone that would argue that trail access should be enough... you try standing on a stump, bobbling up and down on an un-groomed trail for 20 miles and then you come talk to me about "trail access".



I'm not normally one to pull out the "gimp card" but when it comes to limiting access, I would think the Americans w/Disabilities Act should hold some sway in this conversation. Organizations like WWA and others would just as soon strip my only way to access and enjoy the great winter outdoors for their own, selfish reasons. I can't think of a single other venue or activity where this type of exclusion would be tolerated.

When it comes to the courts... it's all about the lawyer speak. Rights mean little against big bucks... but if anyone wants to throw out the gimp card for a hearing or other judicial reasons, I'd be more than happy to back that angle, as a 17 yr. amputee and an avid motor sports enthusiast.


on a side note: just like to toss out a THANK YOU to all the sledders who stop by and help a guy get dug out, without even knowing that I'm disabled. I'd like to thank all those who have been willing to ride with a guy like me... knowing that I may depend on them at some point in the day. It's a great sport and while a "biker" looking guy like myself gets to deal with so much prejudice on a regular basis, I've been impressed with the lack of bias and willingness to jump in and help or give directions or just be cool and friendly, when we're all out there... enjoying the sport of snowmobiling.


and finally, thanks for listening. ;)
May the sun shine on your faces and may your troubles fall to the dust behind you!
 

The Fourth Wolf

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We need lawyers with maps.

Maps tell the whole story: 100% of the forest is open to non-motorized use. Every National Forest and National Park contains designated wilderness where motorized/wheeled conveyance is not permitted. In most NF's less than 25% of the acreage is open to motorized recreation.

WE ARE ALREADY "DISENFRANCHISED"

Skier/activists often deliberately create "conflicts" by recreating in known, popular riding areas. There's a reason they choose not to access the 100's of millions of acres where machines are not permitted, and that reason is their agenda.
 
W

WMC

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WaBackcountry- mouthy wuss?

If anyone wants info on him I can get it for you. He is a real gem and should be ignored so he will just go away.

Please don't waste your words on this guy. Its not worth your breath. If we all just put that time into writting a letter to your local forest service district or something constructive. The local forest service has been very receptive and wants to here from snowmobilers.

Yeah, genius, I was on the front page of the World, had a Guest Editorial previous to that. And you want to put folks in touch for what reason? "Writting" Are you the attorney??? WMC has not been heard for a while, no reason, mission accomplished.

USFS is receptive to snowmobilers, and most folks. More receptive when folks are civil and try to understand the various aspects of an issue. All management is guided by law, Executive Order, and regulations

After efforts of WMC (me and others) and some other more important folks and Organizations there are indications that USFS is attempting more management of snowmobile riding. USFS and DNR are in agreement about a possible winter NMA around Mission Ridge Ski Area. DNR was in general agreement in conversations from the start in my experience, and Gus of El Sendero (and WMC) worked on the DNR Committee for that end.

The Teanaway PWA looks promising, but will not happen quickly if at all. The background hope/ possibility is if there is pressure or litigation to manage the Teanaway PWA similar to the management of some other Region PWAs- that is, PWA managed as Wilderness.

In the short term, the tiny numbers (with a huge impact!) of subalpine snowmobile riders will get unfettered access to pristine Forest that has NEVER been considered for that use or given officially to snowmobile use in any fashion. But there is now funding for a winter Wilderness Ranger. Yep, WMC sent a letter to support that Grant.

The Boise Federal Court decision ruled that USFS must follow the EO written by Nixon and enhanced by Carter (as NPS HAS followed!) in managing snowmobiles. Per the EO snowmobiles are to be managed as are other ORVs, motorcycles. Winter Wildlands Alliance brought the lawsuit after a couple of years wasted going to Washington DC and asking USFS to follow the EO. Of course, ISSA and WSSA and etc just want to raise $$ to litigate and strike down ANYTHING that manages the snowmobile free-for-all. WWA has much less $$, including a few hundred from me, yet the rule of law is to prevail over fundraising.

As well, WWA recently has prevailed in the 15 year fight to regulate the snowmobile free-for-all in Yellowstone.

All of this that the retard in charge of this site cries about is simply about planning and regulation. The decision is that snowmobile riding on Federal Lands must be evaluated, planned, and regulated like any other motorized (or general) use of the Forest.
 
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W

WMC

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Right, moron....

Oh yay.


Civility is back :face-icon-small-dis

Yea, right- here one who challenges is supposed to be civil and let others yadda yadda. Whatever. You must have trouble with reading comprehension.

Civility discussed was in regard to dealing with the USFS land managers. All officials with whom I have had much discussion detest and avoid those who are so aggro, rude, and uncivil- like some expressive morons here. Generally, dealing with snowmobile riders has been avoided. Officials whose job it is to deal with motoheads have received all sort of crap communication and threats in regard to these issues.

There are many good folks who ride snowmobiles- we are all mostly just folks on either side. Sadly, this Forum has shown me that Christopher and the rmk mod are dishonest and cowardly, they fit right in with the punks posting here sometimes. Too many here just whine and bitch pointlessly, and make all sort of threats- fricken punks.

It is not Sierra Club or libs or enviros only. Many folks of various stripes want to recreate on public lands. There is enough to go around. All of the Forest outside Wilderness is not for throttle thrills; actually hardly any of the Wenatchee Forest has been designated for snowmobile riding. But most of it has been taken for snowmobile riding.

No one should be shut out. I know on my local Wenatchee Forest with some management winter motorized and non-motorized could be accommodated well with some management.

(bye bye - enough of this lame bs for a while...)
 

sdsnocop

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WMC what was so offensive with my post that it deserved a bad post rating? Did I not advocate multiple use of our forest lands? Did I not advocate responsible back country snowmobiling? Did I not advocate minimizing conflicts with other users? Did I not advocate staying out of area prohibiting snowmobile use? Did I resort to name calling and insults as seen by both sides of the issue? Most snowmobilers do not have a problem with responsible management of public land as long as it based on actual needs and issues and takes into consideration impacts on various user groups not just a select few. As I stated earlier back country mountain snowmobiling is a very limited opportunity recreational activity that most who participate in it are protective of those limited opportunities. By the way I am one of those public officials who have to deal with motorheads and find them no more arrogant than any other user group I deal with including campers, bicyclers, hunters ,fisherman, hikers, wildlife watchers or any other outdoor recreation user. Matter of fact I find snowmobilers to go out of their way to help others (snowmobiles and non snowmobilers) than any other user group I deal with. Yes there are a select few arrogant self centered snowmobilers and in my job I seem to find them but I have no problems finding them among all the other user groups I deal with in our parks, public lands and trails.
 

Devilmanak

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I found one of the above posts amusing, in that it is correct, and I have never thought of it. Where is the snowmobile only area, with NO skiers, hikers, snowshoers allowed?
We don't think of that because we don't want to exclude anyone from doing what they love.
Couple years ago, coming down a trail, encountered a snowshoer with her yapper dog. She flipped out, screaming at the dog, trying to get it to her, she must have though we were devils on sleds. :) I think she pooped herself, she was so upset, she fell on her arse twice trying to get the dog. We simply stopped and waited for her to get her crap in order and moved on, at an idle. She was on a snowmobile trail that WE had broken months earlier.
Last year, we came up to some skiers with a tracked rig, it was on the trail and they refused to move out of the way so we could pass. It was silly, we slowed down, waited, idled by when they finally moved. They were asking for a confrontation they could use against snowmobilers. They were on a groomed trail that SNOWMOBILERS pay for with their Idaho tags.
Most all of us are very respectful of other users, respect the laws, and do everything we can to accomodate other users. Just think what would happen if we didn't. Think these idiots would change their tudes one bit?
 

kevinm7

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I ride mainly in the Ruby Mountains where a lot of people ski and snowshoe as well. For the most part everyone gets along pretty good. We don't have any groomed trails in NE Nevada so I think that plays a huge role in helping us all get along. The nordic skiers know that they would have an extremely hard time getting to the places they go if we didn't break trail for them. A lot of the guys that ski use sleds to get themselves back to the top faster. It's rather amusing watching two guys with skis on their backs try to ride a sled up a hill. We also have a local heli-ski company that accesses some of the same terrain we do. These are the guys who get mad and complain when you are in the same area as them. They look at you like "How in the hell did you get in here with that?" I think it makes them mad that they paid in excess of $500 for a day of skiing and I am in the same territory for the price of a tank of gas haha. It's not so much the guides that have the attitudes, but the clients.
 

CO 2.0

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Why can't you just ban this guy Christopher?

I like how he calls us out with name calling on this thread still like he is some tough guy (while being a hypocrite at the same time). We all saw a pic of him already, so everyone knows he'd be an EASY push over if he wasn't behind his all mighty computer... lets get real here
 
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