I've been getting a lot of messages about what Tony's clutch setup is, where to get it, what to expect, etc. This thread is about those topics.
A little background: Two buddies and I got Mtntk turbos this year. Kit was supplied with the typical turbo clutching. 10 series (ish), 40+ degree helix, and medium to stiff springs. Our particular setup was 10-74's (actually 74.7 grams), 180-320 primary, straight 40, and 155-222 secondary. I had been lurking on the forums prior to getting the turbo as well as seeing belt performance out in real life with turbos. THEY SUCK! Well lo and behold, we were no different. Clutch heat was off the charts. I actually wrecked a Polaris 183 in 40 miles, most of which were trail miles. If you wanted to make a 2-3+ minute aggressive tree line over and over without stopping and letting the clutches cool, you were gonna blow a belt for sure.
I got a hold of Spaarky on here. And he set me up with what I needed to get started on testing Tony's setup on the Axys. Tony is out this season and has never tested on the Axys. A special thanks to Justin (Spaarky) for the parts and to Tony for taking his time to go through all the nitty gritty details on what works and why, and what to try next to get this more dialed in.
The first set of weights I tried were Indy Dan's Lightning knockoffs. I was running those at 78 grams. They are not the same as real Lightning weights and do not work with Tony's setup. I found out TCP had weights so next ride I had 76.2 gram Lightnings. WAY WAY better. Heat went down to less than what we had with the 10 series, but still to hot. Track speed went WAY up on the big end. Engagement was buttery smooth. From idle to WOT, RPM would climb so fast that it would trip the soft rev limiter when I was running the desired spring that works well in a Pro. Power delivery is more linear. It doesn't quite have that initial yank on the bars like the 10 series; it's totally smooth and linear and just keeps pulling whereas the 10 series would yank and then kinda fall off. Stock Axys is running 2.22:1 gearing which turns out is too tall for our style of riding. We put on Pro RMK pulleys which got us to 2.39:1. That is a bit too low...
And that is where we are as of right now. This is not 100% dialed in. There are some guys running sidekicks that have been testing this as well and I'll add their info in as well.
Lightning Weights
Get these from Tri City Performance. (801) 298-8081. They were the original manufacturer and still have a handful of sets left. When they run out, that's it. There are no more available. Tony and company are working towards getting another run made for next season.
They are a lot different than other weights. They have more tip mass and are tucked under more among other things. This is how they sit in the clutch compared to the 10 series:
Sidekicks are running 68 grams. We ran 76 grams and 74 grams in our Mtntk kits. The 76 grams at 8500 RPM is wild. Basically impossible to stay in the throttle on a hill without wheeling over backwards without a 174 or coupling skid.
Belt to sheave
As you can see in the above picture, those weights are tucked under more. Belt to sheave will increase ~.030" from a 10 series shimming. You want to be .020" - .040" belt to sheave with this setup, ideally .030". So unless you have tight belt to sheave with 10 series, you're gonna have to re shim the spider. And no, a 911 cover or any other belt to sheave adjuster does not count. That is not moving the spider. Most folks don't have the tools to do this. Your local dealer SHOULD be able to. I've come to find out most dealers are clueless and don't even know what shimming the spider is. If that's the case for you, I recommend Indy Dan, Cascade Balancing, etc. $100 - $150 or so for the full shimming, balancing, etc from these outfits.
Belt
Gates 45C4553. The Polaris belt will work, but I believe you will be leaving performance on the table. The Gates seems more grippy to me. Plus they're $104 and come with a warranty. This should be a no brainer. That being said, these belts, as posted before, are pretty finicky. Proper breakin in is crucial. That means 3 complete heat cycles from hot to cold within the first 50 miles. And if you're clutching is off, the belts do not last. If they are dialed in, they seem to last a long time. You can get them on Amazon, Ebay, Dobeck Performance usually has them, etc. Even your local auto parts store, rock auto, etc can get them since they are Gates.
Helix
46-32F / 46-34F ER. Get this from Rogers Sport in Cody, WY or Venom. If I were you, I'd order the special Polaris reverse cut. They will now do this for you. Tony's setup runs soft springs, so in reverse it can pull out of the Venom notch. With the Polaris notch it's fine. We have been running in the 32 finish angle. Everyone says a 32 will never work, you need a 44 or 48 etc to hold the power of the turbo. Well I bet to differ. Read AAEN's book. Stiff secondary spring and steep angles are 100% opposite of efficient clutching. No wonder typical turbo clutching sucks. Shallower angles backshift fast and upshift slower. They also have more belt squeeze than steep angles. So forget everything you read on the internet and trust that this works. Because it does.
Secondary Spring
140-220 with 1 delrin. I have tested the stock 155-222 spring and it was worse than the 140-220. More testing is needed here to verify this is the right spring but so far the 140-220 is what you want.
Primary Spring
Tony likes the 165-310 in his Pro. On the Axys it revs SO fast with this spring. It was throwing my sled for a loop. Like a soft rev limiter protection mode in the ECU when it thinks it doesn't have a belt on it. Sidekick guys are currently liking the 140-330 spring. I ran the stock 120-320 last weekend and it was not too doggy. But I am at 6000' whereas Tony and the Sidekick guys are riding 8000'-10000' or higher.
Alignment
I don't understand the Polaris alignment. We were originally set up with that alignment and the belt witness marks were telling us to move the secondary out and the inside sheave of the Primary was scalding hot at the same time the moveable was much cooler. Obviously not happy there. On the Pro, Tony would set the motor in perfect parallelism and then add motor mounts to lock it down. You can't do that on the Axys so I am running no motor mounts to allow it to flex into alignment as design by Polaris. We have found that using the SLP 20-191 bar set to a gap of ~.150" at the front of the secondary is the happy spot for the belt on the Axys. http://www.startinglineproducts.com/catalog.cfm?pageID=detail&catalogID=3&catID=24&productID=208 They're $40. You'll have to trim the front of it to get it to fit in the Axys.
Gearing
As stated before 2.22:1 is too high for us, 2.39:1 is too low. Tony schooled me on how to read the sheave to see where your heat is coming from and where the belt is riding most of the time. ~2.3:1 seems to be the ideal ratio. Now if you are a hill climber, 2.22:1 might be the ticket. We ride trees. Not incredibly dense trees though. 2.3:1 would be best for us. If you ride dense trees, then 2.39:1 or so may be the ticket for you. Be honest with yourself on gearing. I certainly can't ride 40-50 mph through the woods. So 2.22:1 is not for me. Gearing is not imperative, but pretty darn important if you want good belt life, low heat, and the helix to work as intended. That being said, If you're running a 174 3" gearing/helix angle may not be ideal for you. We are running 155 2.6, 163 2.6, and 165 2.8.
Lastly, Tony has spent a ton of time developing this and doesn't make any money on it or anything. He spends many hours helping the fellow sledder on here and out in the field. If you guys try this and love it as much as we do (and save yourself $1000 in belts), maybe you could give Tony a thanks and pay it forward. He is really involved in the Top of the World trail system in the Beartooths. I'm sure they would accept donations. :rockon:
4th consecutive rip accross this hill doing the same thing. Didn't feel the need to stop to let the clutches cool off. You can see some our riding clips in the Mtntk Axys thread as well. 2-3 minute tree runs are the norm.
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A little background: Two buddies and I got Mtntk turbos this year. Kit was supplied with the typical turbo clutching. 10 series (ish), 40+ degree helix, and medium to stiff springs. Our particular setup was 10-74's (actually 74.7 grams), 180-320 primary, straight 40, and 155-222 secondary. I had been lurking on the forums prior to getting the turbo as well as seeing belt performance out in real life with turbos. THEY SUCK! Well lo and behold, we were no different. Clutch heat was off the charts. I actually wrecked a Polaris 183 in 40 miles, most of which were trail miles. If you wanted to make a 2-3+ minute aggressive tree line over and over without stopping and letting the clutches cool, you were gonna blow a belt for sure.
I got a hold of Spaarky on here. And he set me up with what I needed to get started on testing Tony's setup on the Axys. Tony is out this season and has never tested on the Axys. A special thanks to Justin (Spaarky) for the parts and to Tony for taking his time to go through all the nitty gritty details on what works and why, and what to try next to get this more dialed in.
The first set of weights I tried were Indy Dan's Lightning knockoffs. I was running those at 78 grams. They are not the same as real Lightning weights and do not work with Tony's setup. I found out TCP had weights so next ride I had 76.2 gram Lightnings. WAY WAY better. Heat went down to less than what we had with the 10 series, but still to hot. Track speed went WAY up on the big end. Engagement was buttery smooth. From idle to WOT, RPM would climb so fast that it would trip the soft rev limiter when I was running the desired spring that works well in a Pro. Power delivery is more linear. It doesn't quite have that initial yank on the bars like the 10 series; it's totally smooth and linear and just keeps pulling whereas the 10 series would yank and then kinda fall off. Stock Axys is running 2.22:1 gearing which turns out is too tall for our style of riding. We put on Pro RMK pulleys which got us to 2.39:1. That is a bit too low...
And that is where we are as of right now. This is not 100% dialed in. There are some guys running sidekicks that have been testing this as well and I'll add their info in as well.
Lightning Weights
Get these from Tri City Performance. (801) 298-8081. They were the original manufacturer and still have a handful of sets left. When they run out, that's it. There are no more available. Tony and company are working towards getting another run made for next season.
They are a lot different than other weights. They have more tip mass and are tucked under more among other things. This is how they sit in the clutch compared to the 10 series:
Sidekicks are running 68 grams. We ran 76 grams and 74 grams in our Mtntk kits. The 76 grams at 8500 RPM is wild. Basically impossible to stay in the throttle on a hill without wheeling over backwards without a 174 or coupling skid.
Belt to sheave
As you can see in the above picture, those weights are tucked under more. Belt to sheave will increase ~.030" from a 10 series shimming. You want to be .020" - .040" belt to sheave with this setup, ideally .030". So unless you have tight belt to sheave with 10 series, you're gonna have to re shim the spider. And no, a 911 cover or any other belt to sheave adjuster does not count. That is not moving the spider. Most folks don't have the tools to do this. Your local dealer SHOULD be able to. I've come to find out most dealers are clueless and don't even know what shimming the spider is. If that's the case for you, I recommend Indy Dan, Cascade Balancing, etc. $100 - $150 or so for the full shimming, balancing, etc from these outfits.
Belt
Gates 45C4553. The Polaris belt will work, but I believe you will be leaving performance on the table. The Gates seems more grippy to me. Plus they're $104 and come with a warranty. This should be a no brainer. That being said, these belts, as posted before, are pretty finicky. Proper breakin in is crucial. That means 3 complete heat cycles from hot to cold within the first 50 miles. And if you're clutching is off, the belts do not last. If they are dialed in, they seem to last a long time. You can get them on Amazon, Ebay, Dobeck Performance usually has them, etc. Even your local auto parts store, rock auto, etc can get them since they are Gates.
Helix
46-32F / 46-34F ER. Get this from Rogers Sport in Cody, WY or Venom. If I were you, I'd order the special Polaris reverse cut. They will now do this for you. Tony's setup runs soft springs, so in reverse it can pull out of the Venom notch. With the Polaris notch it's fine. We have been running in the 32 finish angle. Everyone says a 32 will never work, you need a 44 or 48 etc to hold the power of the turbo. Well I bet to differ. Read AAEN's book. Stiff secondary spring and steep angles are 100% opposite of efficient clutching. No wonder typical turbo clutching sucks. Shallower angles backshift fast and upshift slower. They also have more belt squeeze than steep angles. So forget everything you read on the internet and trust that this works. Because it does.
Secondary Spring
140-220 with 1 delrin. I have tested the stock 155-222 spring and it was worse than the 140-220. More testing is needed here to verify this is the right spring but so far the 140-220 is what you want.
Primary Spring
Tony likes the 165-310 in his Pro. On the Axys it revs SO fast with this spring. It was throwing my sled for a loop. Like a soft rev limiter protection mode in the ECU when it thinks it doesn't have a belt on it. Sidekick guys are currently liking the 140-330 spring. I ran the stock 120-320 last weekend and it was not too doggy. But I am at 6000' whereas Tony and the Sidekick guys are riding 8000'-10000' or higher.
Alignment
I don't understand the Polaris alignment. We were originally set up with that alignment and the belt witness marks were telling us to move the secondary out and the inside sheave of the Primary was scalding hot at the same time the moveable was much cooler. Obviously not happy there. On the Pro, Tony would set the motor in perfect parallelism and then add motor mounts to lock it down. You can't do that on the Axys so I am running no motor mounts to allow it to flex into alignment as design by Polaris. We have found that using the SLP 20-191 bar set to a gap of ~.150" at the front of the secondary is the happy spot for the belt on the Axys. http://www.startinglineproducts.com/catalog.cfm?pageID=detail&catalogID=3&catID=24&productID=208 They're $40. You'll have to trim the front of it to get it to fit in the Axys.
Gearing
As stated before 2.22:1 is too high for us, 2.39:1 is too low. Tony schooled me on how to read the sheave to see where your heat is coming from and where the belt is riding most of the time. ~2.3:1 seems to be the ideal ratio. Now if you are a hill climber, 2.22:1 might be the ticket. We ride trees. Not incredibly dense trees though. 2.3:1 would be best for us. If you ride dense trees, then 2.39:1 or so may be the ticket for you. Be honest with yourself on gearing. I certainly can't ride 40-50 mph through the woods. So 2.22:1 is not for me. Gearing is not imperative, but pretty darn important if you want good belt life, low heat, and the helix to work as intended. That being said, If you're running a 174 3" gearing/helix angle may not be ideal for you. We are running 155 2.6, 163 2.6, and 165 2.8.
Lastly, Tony has spent a ton of time developing this and doesn't make any money on it or anything. He spends many hours helping the fellow sledder on here and out in the field. If you guys try this and love it as much as we do (and save yourself $1000 in belts), maybe you could give Tony a thanks and pay it forward. He is really involved in the Top of the World trail system in the Beartooths. I'm sure they would accept donations. :rockon:
4th consecutive rip accross this hill doing the same thing. Didn't feel the need to stop to let the clutches cool off. You can see some our riding clips in the Mtntk Axys thread as well. 2-3 minute tree runs are the norm.
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