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  #1  
Old 10-22-2013, 09:53 AM
Oregonsledder Oregonsledder is offline
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Default Adding oil to gas tank

I know this has been discussed a bit, but I think the fact that there seems to be two very different views on this is interesting. Let me start the debate by raising a few questions.
First many say adding oil to the gas leans out the burn, why do you think that? Why would sled manufactures add oil to new sleds gas tanks for the initial break in period. If the oil causes a lean condition, would it be smart for a manufacturer to suggest this on a new tight engine?

Second, most two stroke engines from the very beginning have had oil in the gas, why has that worked so well for so many years? The desired gas to oil ratio is approximately the same whether the engine is injected with oil or if it’s mixed in the gas. And yes I understand that the oil injection is not direct injection, but for the sake of this discussion it shouldn’t matter.

There is also the issue of oiling the bottom end with injection systems, but that’s not what I want this thread to discuss.

What are your thoughts on whether oil added to gas leans out the burn, and if so why is that?
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  #2  
Old 10-22-2013, 10:50 AM
89sandman 89sandman is online now
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my pro would go from about 30:1 on deep days to about 55:1 on hardpack days. oil injection sucks. on hardpack days i would add 4 ounces of oil to the tank just for insurance. lets say you have 10 gallons in the tank and add 4 ounces of oil thats a mix ratio of 320:1 in the tank. not enough of a difference to cause a lean condition...
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Old 10-22-2013, 11:23 AM
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This could be a very good topic just hope it can stay on track! Technically more oil is a leaner fuel/air mixture,sure, but as Sandman said 4 or even 8 oz to the tank shouldn't cause a lean issue.Extra oil ( lubrication) ,not too much, is a good thing I don't think too many riders do it but checking plugs & pistons, done correctly, is the real way to know what your burn is, and as you know that doesn't mean checking at an idle.
With carbs we could adjust for this on the track,some efi machines had a adjustable fuel regulator too, now if we have an issue we have fuel controllers but not too many are going this route with "stock" engines but some do. I spoke with SLP and they don't even have a map for a stocker on the 800 POO.
Lastly shouldn't EFI adjust fuel/air for a little more oil????MAYBE MAYBE Not!
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Old 10-22-2013, 12:13 PM
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the quest for using less oil is required by EPA , I think. by passing rules like they have a Yellowstone the OEM try to break new ground every year on getting the MAX out of there product and the min to the in terms of foot print. Husqvarna has the same problem with running 50:1 in there XP line of high end saws , they want more oil then is suggested in the owners manual but can live (maybe not as long) with a 50:1 ratio of good oils. Its been proven many times that more oil will produce more power but Big Brother wants less so WHO is looseing out..... That would be you and me! WHo asked for MBTE to be put in the gas ......EPA , that was a good idea wasn't it!


Rant over
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Old 10-22-2013, 12:36 PM
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Default

Break-in oil was added to the fuel for my 013 800 as requested by the dealer and such. What concerns me more is the quality of fuel we get anymore. Banging off the det-sensor time and again even with the low octane setting on is disconcerting. Adding oil to the fuel tank didn't help this situation at all. 550iq
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Old 10-22-2013, 01:02 PM
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Adding oil to the fuel tank didn't help this situation at all. 550iq[/QUOTE]

No and it won't
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Old 10-22-2013, 01:11 PM
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Default

you could argue that your suppose to break your motor in that first tank, varying throttle not holding it open for long stretches.... but you can also lean your motor out mid throttle right?
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Old 10-22-2013, 01:49 PM
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by waxer View Post
This could be a very good topic just hope it can stay on track! Technically more oil is a leaner fuel/air mixture,sure, but as Sandman said 4 or even 8 oz to the tank shouldn't cause a lean issue.Extra oil ( lubrication) ,not too much, is a good thing I don't think too many riders do it but checking plugs & pistons, done correctly, is the real way to know what your burn is, and as you know that doesn't mean checking at an idle.
With carbs we could adjust for this on the track,some efi machines had a adjustable fuel regulator too, now if we have an issue we have fuel controllers but not too many are going this route with "stock" engines but some do. I spoke with SLP and they don't even have a map for a stocker on the 800 POO.
Lastly shouldn't EFI adjust fuel/air for a little more oil????MAYBE MAYBE Not!
Should the ECU adjust for fuel/air ratio? Yes it should, but most OEM 2T (2-stroke) EFI systems are an open loop design this means that there is not o2 sensor to provide the feedback nessary to adjust the air/fuel ratio. So the Manufactures program the systems in the lab with build the maps and write them to the ECU. In this scenario the ECU can only adjust the fuel delivery based on the parameters that it is given in the internal maps.

In a Closed loop system the ECU would have an o2 sensor in the exhaust that would provide the feedback loop that can give the ECU extra data about the air/fuel ratio and the ECU would have instructions programed into it to add fuel or take it away based on the desired air/fuel ratio.

Why do the manufactures not change to a Closed Loop system? My guess is it is cost and maintenance. o2 sensors will have a shortened life span in a 2T exhaust environment due to the oil can foul the o2 sensor much faster. Personally I think for the cost of an o2 sensor now at under 100.00 this could be an annual maintenance item that is as easy to change as a spark plug.

Dyno-jet Research does have an add-on to the new PCV called autotune that essentially converts the EFI system to a closed loop system. There is intellegence built in to it that you can give it a desired air/Fuel ratio and it will make adjustments to the program in the PCV to achieve the air/fuel parameter you give it. The only problem is it does not come cheap. With the questionable fuel that we can sometimes get out there this technology would be a good addition to save the engine from a burn down on top of the tech that is already built into the current systems.
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  #9  
Old 10-22-2013, 01:59 PM
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Default

The fuel ~vs~ oil and lean debate is basically this, lets say the injector flows 5mm of fuel pre firing stroke, now displace some of that fuel with oil, lets say for sake of arguement, 1mm, now you are only flowing 4mm of fuel, and 1mm of oil, basically you are now introducing less fuel with the same amount of air, this equates a lean condition, enough to make a real world difference? I doubt it. As far as adding extra lubrication to the bottom end, it will not, as fuel is injected into the transfer port, as it enters the combustion chamber, so no added benefit to the bottom end, but yes to the piston and upper rings. Turning up the oil pump is the only real way to add lube to the bottom end. My $0.2
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Old 10-22-2013, 02:24 PM
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Old 10-22-2013, 02:27 PM
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Old 10-22-2013, 02:33 PM
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Old 10-22-2013, 06:49 PM
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Old 10-22-2013, 07:06 PM
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Old 10-22-2013, 08:02 PM
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