Anyone with any honest recent Fox shock experience?

Devilmanak said:

I talked with a guy that works at a dealership today, who gets free stuff from Raptor to test, he said that he gave his last set to a "Fox" guy, who said that the Raptors were ten times better.

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"All" powersports chocks are DeCarbon type of more or less the same design. Difference between them are more in the quality and tolerances of individual parts rather than large differences in design. There are some differences, for example, between how different makers have solved the compression adjustment features.

So, unless you are a professional SnoX racer your take apart stock chock can be made to work just as fine as any aftermarket chock. (Top of the line stuff i.e Öhlins etc often manages longer service interval than the cheaper stuff). The trick is to know who is capable of tuning your chocks to suit you!

AND, don't forget to get the right springs! Most people seem to completely ignore the springs and if you don't happen to weigh exactly what the OEM test person weighs then you probably has a lot to gain just by changing springs. Changing springs will not even be wasted money if you go and get shocks later, even high end shocks needs to be paired with the correct springs.

boondocker97 said:

Really? Wow I figured there was sort of an A team and B team based on what I've seen just messing with suspension for fun in my garage. Worst OEM Cat one I took apart with less than 100 miles on it had a ridiculous amount of air in the oil. Not sure if it was the assembly/bleed procedure that was lacking or just a bad IFP o-ring. Local suspension shop a few years back said he noticed quite a bit of air in OEM shocks in general. Thought maybe the speed of production was partly to blame. Cat bean counters used to hold back the potential of the shocks, but that has gotten a little better in recent years.

I agree with your other points. I still like Fox, but would definitely purchase new from a tuner as you said.

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Yeah, anecdotally I'd say Fox had problems across the board 2-3 years ago. The difference was a lot of their high end stuff received a second rebuild to get the valving right (it wasn't straight out of the crate - lot of those shocks had a tuner involved - either at Fox or at a 3rd party)

Their process engineering (if you want to call it that) has gotten LOTS better the last few years. They still are missing one crucial variable, which is figuring out how to quickly get everything setup for a particular rider, sled and application without cracking the shock open. (they don't have this right at all)

This is why if you buy fox you have to go through some reputable tuner or you are wasting your money (or maybe you know how to valve/tune yourself)

Personally, I could have probably gotten by with the valving, but the spring rate threw the balance of the sled *WAY* off. (rate + preload the shock shipped with)

Unlike other sports, its really hard to get your spring rate/preload right on all four shocks without using something objective, like scales, and without really knowing what you are feeling.

Anyway, yeah, if you are dropping coin on new shocks, they ought to be just about perfect out of the box. Spring rate specifically, and preload for that matter, should be very close out of the box...

Devilmanak said:

The terminology is funny, and most don't understand it.

Air shocks are a waste in most situations. They have massive stiction, they change within a ride as far as performance. The ONLY situation where I would buy another air shock is in the case where I just bought my 70 pound son a 16 M6000 Sno Pro. I can back off the air and get a decent ride without having to respring, and as he grows we can add pressure.

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This couldn't be further from the truth. You are right a decade ago, but these days the air vs coil equation is a far different ballgame.

I've worked with both Fox and Rockshox behind the scenes (and for media outlets) as a suspension tester. I can tell you first hand, how in mountain biking, performance of an air spring went from bad, to okay, to good, to equal (but different) to that of coil.

If you want an example, look at what the guys are doing at the top level of DH mountain bike racing, a sport where suspension setup is perhaps more challenging than any other sport (being the rider weighs more than the bike by a margin of 5x plus)

The big change in air springs is the ability to shape the negative air spring to the tuners desire AND the ability to play with the volume of the positive chamber. Add to this seal design that is light years ahead of the stuff a decade prior and you have shocks that I'd argue are *more* sensitive off the top than a coil.

Why? It comes down to how you can alter the spring curve in a progressive manor. You can't do this as precisely, as much, or as easily with coil. You can have incredibly soft starting stroke with a ton of ramp up to control bottom out. Using positive/negative air springs you can do so much to the curve of a shock.

I pick my shock spring based off the leverage ratio curve of the tool its going on, what I'm after, how much tuning to the spring I think I may do and how much mid stroke support I want.

Personally, I'd rather go all air at this point, only because its so much easier to change the rate/curve, with very few drawbacks.

Realize, I'm neurotic as they come with what you are talking about (stiction/suppleness etc)

Devilmanak said:

Mountain bikes are not sleds. Mountain bikes use small shafts with much less stiction than the larger bore sled stuff. To each his own though. I know nobody who prefers Floats over coil stuff here in the mountains.

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I do at this point. You have to do the shock maintenance though to keep the stiction down. People claim coil overs are maintenance free, but I disagree. How many people ever re-check their sag/preload after 10 hrs when the springs take their first big set? How many re-check at least once a season after that or change their oil/nitrogen? People are pretty adamant about changing clutch springs to maintain performance because they can see their loosing RPM with an old spring. Very few probably ever worry about their suspension springs because it is a gradual change over time that they don't notice as much. At least if you are thinking about air pressure you're checking it once in a while to be in the ballpark of where you want to be. To be fair, I also know people that never check their air pressures either. It's funny that some of those people are the ones that say "this sucks".

As far as changing throughout the day, How much does the weight of the sled change throughout the day with snow buildup?

Devilmanak said:

Mountain bikes are not sleds. Mountain bikes use small shafts with much less stiction than the larger bore sled stuff. To each his own though. I know nobody who prefers Floats over coil stuff here in the mountains.

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Facepalm. Not true. At all.

Go look at a Fox Float X2 mountain bike shock. The shaft is LARGER (bigger in diameter) than a sled shock. Same with front suspension. Fox 40 is a very large diameter tube (40mm) and there are two of them sliding in conjunction with each other (though in this case the air spring is internal - inside one of the tubes). Either way, add to this the fact that the rider is light (so pressures are low), breakaway force is MORE notable on a mountain bike than a sled.

Also, your comment is kind of silly ("mountain bikes are not sleds"). A LOT of Fox's R&D comes from mountain bikes. More than any other unit...

Dirt bikes commonly use air forks too, pretty sure that's what won Erzberg this year (and was 2nd & 3rd)

As far as your "core riders only ride coil" comments, there is a dude by the name of Chris Burandt prefers air over coil (and he has the option of either).

Most people that are die hard coil guys haven't tried modern air shocks, and have zero idea how to properly tune them.

Not saying air *beats* coil but I am saying its a viable option depending on what you are looking for. I'd actually argue for mountain riding, on paper, its probably a better option. Snowcross, coil currently has the edge...

Happy to explain the rational to this one if anyone wants!

Devilmanak said:

Exactly. I run my Summits with stock front shocks and preload them until they sack/oil gets tired, then install the next higher rate springs. For an easy cheap fix.
I was going to revalve/change oil on my stockers last year but getting them apart isn't as easy as unscrewing them, like with Freeride/Fox/etc. I have done lots of that type before (Ohlins) but it was going to leave marks on the black shock body and I wanted the shocks to look new for sled resale.
Which is why I posted the original question. I am putting FR shocks on my 175 this year, and need a decent rear/rear. BRP did a pretty good job on the Freeride valving last year, much better than seasons past. And they are easily rebuildable, and you can put two stage comp valving in them easily.

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I just got my gas filler equipment together last night so this winter I will be fiddling with my shocks myself =)

Apparently, and I heard this from several shock service guys, (friends that service shocks, not guys trying to sell me something), KYB puts rubbish oil in the OEM-bound shocks. The KYBs apparently needs a first service almost at once and then will last longer until the second oil change.

JJ_0909 said:

Facepalm. Not true. At all.

Go look at a Fox Float X2 mountain bike shock. The shaft is LARGER (bigger in diameter) than a sled shock. Same with front suspension. Fox 40 is a very large diameter tube (40mm) and there are two of them sliding in conjunction with each other (though in this case the air spring is internal - inside one of the tubes). Either way, add to this the fact that the rider is light (so pressures are low), breakaway force is MORE notable on a mountain bike than a sled.

Also, your comment is kind of silly ("mountain bikes are not sleds"). A LOT of Fox's R&D comes from mountain bikes. More than any other unit...

Dirt bikes commonly use air forks too, pretty sure that's what won Erzberg this year (and was 2nd & 3rd)

As far as your "core riders only ride coil" comments, there is a dude by the name of Chris Burandt prefers air over coil (and he has the option of either).

Most people that are die hard coil guys haven't tried modern air shocks, and have zero idea how to properly tune them.

Not saying air *beats* coil but I am saying its a viable option depending on what you are looking for. I'd actually argue for mountain riding, on paper, its probably a better option. Snowcross, coil currently has the edge...

Happy to explain the rational to this one if anyone wants!

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Hhhmmm about this, I have raced downhill bikes for good ten years locally, World Cup, and world champs. Also doing suspension for bikes and sleds for easy 20 years. The fox 40 is a great fork for its torsional stiffness, but definitely is not the smoothest, and I’ve raced on a lot of different forks and shocks. Pending on the track I’d be on air or coil. But this is a sled fourm not a mtb fourm.
It’s is complete logic bigger stantions or larger shock shaft is more stiction due to more surface area. The larger shaft is where all the shock fluid is in a air shock. More fluid less cavitation. Than we could get into air sleeve design ipf piston design, etc. Progressive or linear spring rates.
Air shocks have there place, light weight,and not having to swap out springs. They definitely have gotten a lot better, but still need work. A proper tuned coil shock will still feel nicer, but the spring does have a life span.

Myself I still to this date have not ridden a nice air shock that I would rave about, even custom tuned ones.

treeboy said:

Hhhmmm about this, I have raced downhill bikes for good ten years locally, World Cup, and world champs. Also doing suspension for bikes and sleds for easy 20 years. The fox 40 is a great fork for its torsional stiffness, but definitely is not the smoothest, and I’ve raced on a lot of different forks and shocks. Pending on the track I’d be on air or coil. But this is a sled fourm not a mtb fourm.
It’s is complete logic bigger stantions or larger shock shaft is more stiction due to more surface area. The larger shaft is where all the shock fluid is in a air shock. More fluid less cavitation. Than we could get into air sleeve design ipf piston design, etc. Progressive or linear spring rates.
Air shocks have there place, light weight,and not having to swap out springs. They definitely have gotten a lot better, but still need work. A proper tuned coil shock will still feel nicer, but the spring does have a life span.

Myself I still to this date have not ridden a nice air shock that I would rave about, even custom tuned ones.

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1) Come forward and name thyself! Lol. Seriously, there are VERY few guys who have raced world champs, or world cups. My full name is Jeff Brines - you'll see me as one of VitalMTBs product testers and about half way down any enduro results sheet in the pro class (lol).

2) Mountain bike suspension is worth discussing here 100% as that is the breeding ground for a lot of R&D in suspension technology. Treeboy, you will remember a certain powersports company getting into WC just for R&D...

3) Suspension on a mountain bike, at the highest level, matters a lot more than suspension on your sled (so long as your spring rate is close and weight distribution right) in the mountains. In the mountains we have the medium of snow between us and the sled. On a good day, so long as your weight transfer is kept in check, suspension matters but not nearly like it does in the DH mountain bike world day to day. (snow is the ultimate suspension!)

If guys at the top level of a sport that is so suspension intensive goes air, when they have a coil option, that is important to note and far more objective (and compelling) than the "my dad could beat up your dad" argument snowest has become. Especially when the damper in question is made by the company in the title of this thread (I'm referring to Fox product).

In DH mountain biking, you'll see a lot of riders swap back and forth depending on track, linkage and what they are looking for. They are swapping largely for the reasons I mentioned above, as well as the fact air is more progressive than coil. It has nothing to do with weight at this point. (in that sport)

You aren't wrong that larger shafts have more friction, but under load they will actually disperse this friction better and be smoother (gasp). Now, for some application this doesn't matter as side load is very minimal (skid). Others there is some side load at times (IFS). Plus you have to factor in force to the equation (how big is the lever). Regardless, I'll try and get some graphs from fox, but the whole "there is more stiction in air" arguement is so BS. They graph breakaway force using data acquisition on a shock dyno, and I know its on par with a coil.

The shape of a fox air curve *is* different, and THAT (and adjustibility with a pump) is why you pick one over the other, but the whole "coil is better I'm positive" argument is for the birds.

Your argument pertaining to cavitation isn't all that accurate at this point either. If it was, we'd always get it in mtn biking but we seldom see it (damper shaft is smaller in mountain bike than powersports). More importantly, I'd argue we NEVER get cavitation in a mountain riding environment (sled). Maybe to and from the riding spots we are in an environment that can produce it, but we aren't snowcross racers. Our suspension has to deal more with weight transfer, rider input etc (slow shaft speed where cavitation isn't at all an issue) followed by that random rock we didn't see, a log, a stump, a hole and for the really good riders - air (high shaft speed) - all of these are singular events. Either way, cavitation is likely the last thing we'll have an issue with in the mountains outside of spring conditions or the trail in/out - and even then its very debatable as I've seen small shaft shocks work just fine if tuned properly, and show zero indication of cavitating on data acquisition systems...

You are completely right that there are a ton of variables here, but don't write air off based off the old "stiction is higher" argument, it simply isn't true in 2018. Plenty of super talented riders go air, and are offered the coil choice. Personally, if I'm going Fox, I'm going air more than likely at this point. I love how much I an adjust the curve, and I love how easy it is to change the spring RATE, not just preload (which doesn't change the rate) with a shock pump and 5 minutes, they've proven durable (last season) and I guess they save weight too...

...for those that are sure coil is superior...

I just looked at the Romaniacs top ten. Half on coil, half on air (forks). Mountain bike worlds is on right now, every single rider on air (fork) with half on air (back).

I'd argue both hard enduro and dh mountain biking is more suspension imperative than mountain sled riding.

The reason you won't see other manufacturers jump into air dampers is simple, the amount of intellectual property Fox owns at the moment is absurd, especially pertaining to negative air spring design (which is *so* important for a coil-like feel)

One of their many patents...

Again, not saying air is the end all be all, but it certainly has its place, and for most mountain riders, its probably more appropriate, as its so much easier to get the sled setup right with air. (get the weight transfer right, get the static weight distribution with rider on it right)

Romaniacs top ten were on air forks because the riders were on KTM or Husky and they had the choice of AER 48 or Xplor. Thats all those brands have. Faced with the choice of the crappy XPLOR fork I would have chosen AER as well. The fact is we went down the air road in the ‘70’s, went down it again recently over the last five plus years, and now all the bike manufacturers are going back
to springs again. When the manufacturers went air again, I thought “oh no, they didn’t learn their lesson the first time”. Or, some ****ing marketing genius is at it again. I race on a KYB PSF2 air fork, and I can tell you it sucks ass. One spring conversion and $1100 later it works well. Don’t get me started on this air thing. It has it advantages of course, but they don’t outweigh the spring option.

hoov165x said:

Romaniacs top ten were on air forks because the riders were on KTM or Husky and they had the choice of AER 48 or Xplor. Thats all those brands have. Faced with the choice of the crappy XPLOR fork I would have chosen AER as well. The fact is we went down the air road in the ‘70’s, went down it again recently over the last five plus years, and now all the bike manufacturers are going back
to springs again. When the manufacturers went air again, I thought “oh no, they didn’t learn their lesson the first time”. Or, some ****ing marketing genius is at it again. I race on a KYB PSF2 air fork, and I can tell you it sucks ass. One spring conversion and $1100 later it works well. Don’t get me started on this air thing. It has it advantages of course, but they don’t outweigh the spring option.

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...you missed the part about the intellectual property Fox (and Fox alone) has. I guarantee if other moto companies had this things would be different.

The only company that has licensed it is another bike mountain bike company.

I actually have a bunch of suspension in my garage right now with other styles of air springs and yes, I agree, they suck.

Either way, I'll say first hand I don't have experience with moto air forks (was just looking through results), so you very well may be right. I would actually bet so.

Again, if you are a mega nerd dive down the patent rabbit hole, learn how some of Fox's spring technology works, then jump on a 2017+ set of Float EVOLs... they rock. I'm saying this first hand, having swapped between a properly tuned set of coils and airs on the exact same sled.

Who else here has done this and can offer first hand experience with absolutely no sponsorship behind it?

hoov165x said:

Romaniacs top ten were on air forks because the riders were on KTM or Husky and they had the choice of AER 48 or Xplor. Thats all those brands have. Faced with the choice of the crappy XPLOR fork I would have chosen AER as well. The fact is we went down the air road in the ‘70’s, went down it again recently over the last five plus years, and now all the bike manufacturers are going back
to springs again. When the manufacturers went air again, I thought “oh no, they didn’t learn their lesson the first time”. Or, some ****ing marketing genius is at it again. I race on a KYB PSF2 air fork, and I can tell you it sucks ass. One spring conversion and $1100 later it works well. Don’t get me started on this air thing. It has it advantages of course, but they don’t outweigh the spring option.

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I would bet the extreme enduro guys are just like any of your motocross/supercross guys and can use whatever kind of suspension they want, not just what the manufacturer ships the bikes with.

justinkredible56 said:

I would bet the extreme enduro guys are just like any of your motocross/supercross guys and can use whatever kind of suspension they want, not just what the manufacturer ships the bikes with.

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I would agree with you. That said, the guys I know who have run it did so on a stock fork. (Keith for instance). Just had it revalved and went after it.

http://www.kreftmoto.com/aer48-revalve-control

Super mega thread derail but I hear amazing htings about these guys' work with the AER48 forks.