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SideWinder reviews?
- Thread starter 09 NYTRO RDR
- Start date
I own 850 summit and a 560 lb Nytro RTR...(completely full of fuel/oil/spare belt/tool kit) so I can say I'm pretty unbiased in my opinion..2S vs 4S. I like them both...still ride them both, but there are night and day differences...
Nytro power delivery is superior. Easier to modulate, easier to pick through technical stuff. Nytro with cat suspension/track doesn't trench like summit..so even though it has a shorter 2.25 track, it does get on top of snow and climb very very well.
Summit is superior on side hill and tight terrain. Weight and panelling out much much better.
I've ridden lots of vipers, but they don't feel like my Nytro. The viper drivers who tried my Nytro will tell you the same. Weight matters. But I don't really buy the 4S weight issue so much. Nikolai who is an absolute yami guru weighed the nytro engine at 112 lbs dry (see page 54 of 2012 AK sled build thread).
http://ty4stroke.com/threads/2012-ak-sled-build.111935/page-54
Add oil (6lbs), oil tank (5lbs) and plumbing (2 lbs) and you get to 125lbs. The 850 mill comes in around 90 lbs. Add the tuned pipe at approx. 20lbs (assuming that's the only real additional weight added to a 2s that a 4s doesn't have), so we are at 110. Thats 15lbs in the difference.....
Turbo's are heavy...add 35 lbs ...all of it up front....which has to contribute to the reason why the SW's are divey.
I think Gyroscopic effects definitely come into play but maybe more important... the engine is too far forward relative to the drive sprocket (both viper and nytro chassis) and when putting a heavier 4s in front of your drive sprocket....millimeters really count.
We are pretty lucky out east because at 0-3000 feet HP is 100% so no issue. When you start reaching 8000-11000 feet, I would definitely lean on HP versus weight. Try driving a 600cc mountain sled and you'll wish you had more power than less weight....
OTM
Nytro power delivery is superior. Easier to modulate, easier to pick through technical stuff. Nytro with cat suspension/track doesn't trench like summit..so even though it has a shorter 2.25 track, it does get on top of snow and climb very very well.
Summit is superior on side hill and tight terrain. Weight and panelling out much much better.
I've ridden lots of vipers, but they don't feel like my Nytro. The viper drivers who tried my Nytro will tell you the same. Weight matters. But I don't really buy the 4S weight issue so much. Nikolai who is an absolute yami guru weighed the nytro engine at 112 lbs dry (see page 54 of 2012 AK sled build thread).
http://ty4stroke.com/threads/2012-ak-sled-build.111935/page-54
Add oil (6lbs), oil tank (5lbs) and plumbing (2 lbs) and you get to 125lbs. The 850 mill comes in around 90 lbs. Add the tuned pipe at approx. 20lbs (assuming that's the only real additional weight added to a 2s that a 4s doesn't have), so we are at 110. Thats 15lbs in the difference.....
Turbo's are heavy...add 35 lbs ...all of it up front....which has to contribute to the reason why the SW's are divey.
I think Gyroscopic effects definitely come into play but maybe more important... the engine is too far forward relative to the drive sprocket (both viper and nytro chassis) and when putting a heavier 4s in front of your drive sprocket....millimeters really count.
We are pretty lucky out east because at 0-3000 feet HP is 100% so no issue. When you start reaching 8000-11000 feet, I would definitely lean on HP versus weight. Try driving a 600cc mountain sled and you'll wish you had more power than less weight....
OTM
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M
That's quite interesting about the weight of the engines.
I'm curious as to why the Viper is roughly 50lbs heavier than the M8.
Stupid me.....I forgot that the 2 stroke also carries around 3-4 litres of injection oil in an oil tank so deduct much of oil tank and oil in the difference. That takes the 4s vs 2s gap to under 10 lbs!!!
In fairness though, Nytro/Viper engine can only make about 145hp with a fuel controller, header, and intake....that's still 10-15hp less than most 800's
OTM
In fairness though, Nytro/Viper engine can only make about 145hp with a fuel controller, header, and intake....that's still 10-15hp less than most 800's
OTM
M
I'd like to try what you're smokin.
H
I will not argue about weight, my RX1 is heavy and handles more like a wheelbarrow full of rocks. I have not rode sleds for 3 years due to a smashed elbow. I did how ever get out to the mountains 2 weeks ago and rode my RX1 and my boy had the 850 which we traded back and forth. The snow was at minimum 1 foot of fresh wet heavy greatness. My RX1 at 13 psi was an absolute riot . Yes at the end of the day I felt like I had been run over by Oprah but it was worth it. If I was to spend over 14 grand on a sled it would be a sidewinder and I have not tried one yet.
Viper has steel over-structure, M8 has aluminum. Viper has front radiator, M8 does not. If you look at the chassis' closely you'll see they are similar but not the same. Also everyone tends to forget all 4S come with e-start (roughly 20-30 lbs). So that gets close to your 50 lbs extra.
Then there's the reverse gear as well. The 800 uses a push button set up that reverses the direction of the crankshaft rotation. With a four stroke the reverse has to be a mechanical function, so this means an extra chain, gear set, linkage and actuator motor in the chain case.
Of course for the weight savvy four stroke rider, these could be deleted if you don't mind not having reverse!
B
They leak 0 oil when upside down & do not shut off when climbing,they will shut off if it's still running when it's upsidedown & once you get it back on the skies it takes about 30sec till it will let you start it.
Sounds like Yamaha has done a great job with this sled. Almost pulled the trigger on an 18', but they need to make a few changes before I'll do that. Number one, put some decent running boards on it, and two, put a mountain seat on it. From what I understand, the riser needs to be taller as well, but that comes down to personal preference. They make those changes, I'll add one to my stable.
M
Its funny, I said the same thing about the running boards until I bought my 16 SKS.
The boards on the Viper/Sidewinder work great compared to the stock SKS/Pro RMK boards. You would never think it, but they have great grip and evacuate snow a lot better.. Trust me I even have a hard time believing it myself. First thing I said when I bought the SKS was, "at least I won't need to change the boards" but now I think its the first thing I'd change if I were keeping it.
The sidewinder next year also got the narrow "Mountain Cat" style boards. I think they will be fine! Same style just more narrow than I'm used to.
Now the seat is another story, that thing got to go. I know there are aftermarket alternatives but that's not good enough in today's market as far as I'm concerned.
The bars are perfect for me. I like a low handlebar set up.. but like you said that's preference and a 50 buck handlebar riser.
All in all it should be a great sled, but I'll never buy one until I can try it.
So until then I'll keep rockin the Turbo Viper.
I'll have to take your word on those running boards. I know on my 16' AXYS, the boards work great as well as the boards on the G4 Summits. Would have thought Cat and Yamaha would have gone the same direction.
I also agree that if I'm going to spend that kind of money, I wanted some seat time. Fortunately, my Yamaha dealer here just picked one up and said I could try it (He no longer sells sleds as the market down here isn't real strong for sled dealers) After all the reviews, I think it's going to be a hit for Yamaha. I have loved the four stroke I had before, just hated the handling. Hopefully for 2019, Yamaha will make those changes and give me a reason to drop 17K on one of their sleds.
Oil situation was dealt with as this is a factory engineered Turbo Platform. Roll it all day long like any 2 stroke and its good to go. We do it all the time. I agree 100% on the seat. Yamaha is working on an accessory seat that will be 1.5 lower with small platform plus some rear storage. its pretty sweet. As far as the risers. If you are above average height, I'd also agree. But having lower bars is an advantage. Try it before you knock it. But then again personal preference is understood.
As far as comparing this even close to a Viper......its polar opposites. More like comparing it to a Doo or Cat with a bunch of power and torque.
We had our recent Yamafest in Revelstoke this past weekend. 4 2018 and a bunch of 2017 to ride for all. Here is a wrap up story.
Safe sledding
RS
http://sleddermag.com/yamafest-2017-good-times-good-people/
As far as comparing this even close to a Viper......its polar opposites. More like comparing it to a Doo or Cat with a bunch of power and torque.
We had our recent Yamafest in Revelstoke this past weekend. 4 2018 and a bunch of 2017 to ride for all. Here is a wrap up story.
Safe sledding
RS
http://sleddermag.com/yamafest-2017-good-times-good-people/
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M
I thought you said the Viper didn't have an "oil situation" ? I'm sure we discussed this a while back..
The only thing I compared the Viper to the Sidewinder on, was the running boards.. and they aint that different.
That being said, I wish someone would explain why the Sidewinder is so different from the Viper.. All I ever hear is "well you just gotta ride one" well that's not an option for me... But I'd love to read about it.
What exactly has changed so much in the handling department that set these "two" sleds apart.
I know the 18s have the lowered driveshaft and narrowed boards, but what else has been done to make the sidewinder a polar opposite?
I'm going to be in the market for a MY19 snowmobile and I have no idea what I want. Like I said before I'd love to ride something before I buy, but I doubt that will happen unless I rent something for a day.. Which will have to be a Ski-doo I'd imagine.
Anywho.. If you have time I'd love to read what you have to say.
Vipers with MPI's have a problem. Cause they relocate the Oil Seperator to the PTO side and it then has an additional 24" of head that blows past the relief valve. My MCX has no issues as it is in the OEM location. But we all know your opinion of MCX so I will just stop before I start.
Safe sledding
RS
Safe sledding
RS
Thanks for the info Randy. Glad to hear they're addressing the seat issue. Now all they need to improve on are the running boards and it should be a home run. I know Cat has some running board replacements in their accessories catalog, but running boards are not something that should have to be changed on a new 17 thousand dollar sled. Not in todays world. Anyway, keep us posted on anything new and exciting.
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What makes this sled handle better than a viper? Is it just the dropped chaincase? I also heard it's even heavier than a viper
