PRO-RMK STRUCTURAL ADHESIVES: WHAT TO USE, WHERE TO GET IT

richracer1 · Aug 23, 2011

Oregonsledder said:
Thanks for the info guys, it helps. A couple of questions.... #1, why the 4:1 applicator? Is that the rate the glue comes out of the gun? The mixture is 1:1 correct, as determined by the side by side attached tubes?

#2, is the glass beads really needed for my running board application?

I'm starting to question the cost and the benefit for this project.
Thanks

Lord's 406/19 must be dispensed at a ratio of 4 to 1 for it setup properly. No the glass beads aren't necessary - I didn't use them but they also couldn't hurt either. Check out this post for the items I used during the install of AirFrame boards on my '09 RMK 155". Now Better Boards or other similar boards may require more 406/19 than I needed, just an FYI.

http://www.snowestonline.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2753293&postcount=80

Also, the applicator is what pushes, controlled buy the trigger - think of a caulking gun here, the adhesive & catalyst into & through the mixing tube and then on to the surface(s) being bonded. I high reccomend buying extra mixing tubes regardless of the amount of adhesive you buy.

Oregonsledder · Aug 23, 2011

richracer1 said:
Lord's 406/19 must be dispensed at a ratio of 4 to 1 for it setup properly. No the glass beads aren't necessary - I didn't use them but they also couldn't hurt either. Check out this post for the items I used during the install of AirFrame boards on my '09 RMK 155". Now Better Boards or other similar boards may require more 406/19 than I needed, just an FYI.

http://www.snowestonline.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2753293&postcount=80

Also, the applicator is what pushes, controlled buy the trigger - think of a caulking gun here, the adhesive & catalyst into & through the mixing tube and then on to the surface(s) being bonded. I high reccomend buying extra mixing tubes regardless of the amount of adhesive you buy.

Okay, I guess I'm a dummy... if this product needs to be dispenced at a 4:1 ratio, then why don't the attached side by side tubes have a smaller opening or something to insure that the proper 4:1 ratio is maintained? How can the gun (calking type gun) which presses on both tubes make it a 4:1 ratio??
Does the gun somehow push harder on one tube than the other??
Thanks

mountainhorse · Aug 23, 2011

They are larger/smaller in diameter... the plunger is staggered to accept 4:1 mix cartridges. Some of the different caulks/adhesives made by lord use the same gun... different plunger.

If you look closely at the photo (copied from the above post) ...you will see that the plunger is split and that the left side is slightly smaller to fit the smaller part of the cartridge.

mountainhorse · Aug 23, 2011

You can also see that the cartridge has two sides for part A and part B, they are staggered because of the difference in I.D. of the two diff components ...That is what accounts for the ratio of the mix

Oregonsledder · Aug 23, 2011

mountainhorse said:
You can also see that the cartridge has two sides for part A and part B, they are staggered because of the difference in I.D. of the two diff components ...That is what accounts for the ratio of the mix

Very good explanation! Thanks

Rick! · Aug 24, 2011

Rick! said:
If you try to drill and install after gluing, you get metal twisty drill FOD in the glue joint which is not the best thing to do.

mountainhorse said:
Rick... can you elaborate on this a bit.... are you talkng pre or post cure?

Thx.

I'm talking pre-cure. I suck at drilling holes in two thin layers of aluminum at a time. I always have to split them back apart, remove the burrs and then re-assemble so I'm just passing along my experience. The air-frame tubes are pretty thick so the burr would end up on the tunnel stuff.

I'm not sure about post cure drilling. A guy would want to assemble with the adhesive "wet" to thin out the bond to a decent thickness - say .010-.020" and not more than .030". The joint just works better with a somewhat thin adhesive layer - "more is better" mentality just wastes adhesive and doesn't make a stronger joint.

The reason for the extra purchase of the 4:1 plunger is that the white box dispenser comes standard with a 2:1 plunger. I found out the hard way and cost me a bunch of time.

Anyway, good info in this thread for sure.

richracer1 · Aug 24, 2011

I would also like to add to buy some "Clecos" to hold the two parts together along with some clamps while you're drilling the rivet holes, i.e drill a hole & install a cleco, drill another hole & install a cleco - obviously NO adhesive was applied at this point.

I got my clecos and cleco pliers from Summit Racing(http://www.summitracing.com/search/?keyword=Cleco&dds=1). Using clecos and clamps prevented my AirFrame boards from shifting while drilling the rivet mounting holes and when I started my final installation, all my rivet holes lined up when I went to install rivets - really beneficial when you only have a few minutes to install all the rivets before the 406/19 sets up.

Here's a couple of links to "Christopher's" AirFrame install, which is were I got the info/idea to use clecos and the 406/19:
http://www.snowestonline.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2495636&postcount=27

http://www.snowestonline.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2495648&postcount=39

Oregonsledder · Aug 24, 2011

richracer1 said:
I would also like to add to buy some "Clecos" to hold the two parts together along with some clamps while you're drilling the rivet holes, i.e drill a hole & install a cleco, drill another hole & install a cleco - obviously NO adhesive was applied at this point.

I got my clecos and cleco pliers from Summit Racing(http://www.summitracing.com/search/?keyword=Cleco&dds=1). Using clecos and clamps prevented my AirFrame boards from shifting while drilling the rivet mounting holes and when I started my final installation, all my rivet holes lined up when I went to install rivets - really beneficial when you only have a few minutes to install all the rivets before the 406/19 sets up.

Here's a couple of links to "Christopher's" AirFrame install, which is were I got the info/idea to use clecos and the 406/19:
http://www.snowestonline.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2495636&postcount=27

http://www.snowestonline.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2495648&postcount=39

I got mine from Jegs... seems like a good way to hold everything together. My only concern is time. Glue... then install Clec's... then start removing them to install rivits, all in around 6 minutes or less??? Yikes!

akrevrider · Aug 24, 2011

AirFrame Board install with structual adheasive glue

Oregonsledder said:
I got mine from Jegs... seems like a good way to hold everything together. My only concern is time. Glue... then install Clec's... then start removing them to install rivits, all in around 6 minutes or less??? Yikes!

You will have a little more than 6 minutes to work it using this procedure.

After mine was completed the same way there was time to clean it up with paint thinner. Using an air rivet gun and a second set of hands made it a much easier job.

Pretty much used the same install techique as Christopher in the Yamaha Forum on his Air Frame Board install.

Touched it up with black paint on the edges to blend it in and rode for a full season with zero problems.

akrevrider

richracer1 · Aug 24, 2011

Oregonsledder said:
I got mine from Jegs... seems like a good way to hold everything together. My only concern is time. Glue... then install Clec's... then start removing them to install rivits, all in around 6 minutes or less??? Yikes!

Like I mentioned, I did NOT apply any adhesive while I was drilling the rivet holes & installing the clecos. After everything was drilled, cleaned, prepped, air compressor ready, rivets/rivet gun ready, and so on is when I applied the adhesive, bolted the Airframes back on the SAME WAY as I did to drill the rivet holes using the same clamps and so on, I then proceeded to start installing the rivets. The adhesive will ruin the clecos, which are meant to be reusable.

mountainhorse · Aug 26, 2011

Here's a couple of links to "Christopher's" AirFrame install, which is were I got the info/idea to use clecos and the 406/19:
http://www.snowestonline.com/forum/s...6&postcount=27

HMMM... Wonder where he got that Idea?? :face-icon-small-con:face-icon-small-con:face-icon-small-con :face-icon-small-win

richracer1 · Aug 26, 2011

mountainhorse said:
HMMM... Wonder where he got that Idea?? :face-icon-small-con:face-icon-small-con:face-icon-small-con :face-icon-small-win

Hummm, probably from someone that knows a thing or two......:face-icon-small-win

diamonddave · Aug 26, 2011

mountainhorse said:
HMMM... Wonder where he got that Idea?? :face-icon-small-con:face-icon-small-con:face-icon-small-con :face-icon-small-win

Search and Rescue?

mountainhorse · Aug 26, 2011

I don't care who you are.. that Shiz right there is funny!!

Bwaaaaaaa Haaaa Ha!!!

mountainhorse · Aug 26, 2011

The clecos are for setup/drilling fitting.

I found that if you take some good masking tape... put the rivets in from the bottom side and puncture the tape through the rivet mandril... and stick 4 rivets at the 4 corners of the board... that acts as guide pins.

After a full mock up... dry run including all rivet gun "swings" checking that the you can get the rivet gun in all the locations that you need... (an air riveter is Mandatory).

Wipe it down... apply the adhesive, use the 4 "guide pins" and drop the BB's in from the top.. Have a helper feed you rivets and have at it... one at a time quickly riveting the board in place.

If you do your dry run and have an assistant... the job goes very quickly and smoothly.

The Glass beads do help in keeping the bond line consistant.

The rivets that Rob supplies with the boards are good high quality units.. for extra measure.. I like to install all the rivets from the bottom side and use the high strength, large-headed black rivets that Polaris uses in many of their panel installs.

You wont need as many rivets when using the adhesive.

These large head rivets distribute the load over a wider area on the thin, 0.060" stock tunnel material... Part number 7621418

Oregonsledder · Aug 27, 2011

mountainhorse said:
The clecos are for setup/drilling fitting.

I found that if you take some good masking tape... put the rivets in from the bottom side and puncture the tape through the rivet mandril... and stick 4 rivets at the 4 corners of the board... that acts as guide pins.

After a full mock up... dry run including all rivet gun "swings" checking that the you can get the rivet gun in all the locations that you need... (an air riveter is Mandatory).

Wipe it down... apply the adhesive, use the 4 "guide pins" and drop the BB's in from the top.. Have a helper feed you rivets and have at it... one at a time quickly riveting the board in place.

If you do your dry run and have an assistant... the job goes very quickly and smoothly.

The Glass beads do help in keeping the bond line consistant.

The rivets that Rob supplies with the boards are good high quality units.. for extra measure.. I like to install all the rivets from the bottom side and use the high strength, large-headed black rivets that Polaris uses in many of their panel installs.

You wont need as many rivets when using the adhesive.

These large head rivets distribute the load over a wider area on the thin, 0.060" stock tunnel material... Part number 7621418

Mountainhorse, thanks for the real word info. I plan on doing the job a bit different. My thinking is that the adhesive is not really needed, but would add a bit more stiffness, so it seems like a good idea. I plan on using the Clecos as the clamping device so that the pressure is as uniform as possible. I have all types of clamps in my shop but due to the shape of these boards, there is no better way to clamp this for gluing than using the Clecos. I will use a minimal amount of glue so as to insure I don't ruin the Clecos. I will take some scrap and some glue and experiment on the bead, so when I do the job I will apply the right amount to accommodate my approach. I do have an air rivet gun. My thinking is that as I remove the Cleco and apply the rivet, it will draw the metal together a bit more, and bring the glue right to the rivet. We will see if this approach works. I like the idea of the larger head rivets, but I think the standard rivets in the package along with the glue should more than do the job.

volcano buster · Aug 27, 2011

You'll need a second helper, aka "camera man"! I wanna see pictures of your process, even if something goes wrong.

Oregonsledder · Sep 23, 2011

MH, I will finally be getting the Lords 406 next week. It has been on back order for a while. My question is to you or any one else.... do you need to remove the powdercoating from the surface (betterboards) that you plan to glue to the running board? In reading the Lords info they make it sound like you would not need to, but it seems to me that the best possible connection would be between bare metal roughed up a bit.
Any thoughts?

F-Bomb · Sep 23, 2011

There is no doubt the material will stick to the powder...the question will be if the bond between the powder and the Better Board is broken. You could easily test that if you want. Call Rich at Better Boards and tell them what your situation is...ask him to send you a sample part to test.

Personally I wouldn't be at all afraid to grind off the powder along the bottom surface on each side where it will adhere. Just stay on the back side of each board and try only to grind off the covered part. Then you can rivet the suspension bracket through the stock holes and a couple up in the nose as your only rivets. If it works it will be very clean and very cool.

{it's the way boards should come right from the factory...but people WAY WAY WAY smarter then me disagree. Real FO SHO engineers and everything! HMMMMMMMMM:becky::becky:}

Bagger · Sep 23, 2011

F-Bomb said:
{it's the way boards should come right from the factory...but people WAY WAY WAY smarter then me disagree. Real FO SHO engineers and everything! HMMMMMMMMM:becky::becky:}

I wonder if the chilli bombs factor in there anywhere?!?!?! :face-icon-small-con:face-icon-small-sho:face-icon-small-con

I like the idea of minimal rivets . . . :face-icon-small-coo

I really appreciate this site, it's great for mental :crutch: like me!!

Bag

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