Carrying avalanche gear

03RMK800 · Sep 6, 2018

"I guess I never buckle up on the drive west, maybe I’m the ignorant one, but then again me wearing my seatbelt has nothing to do with whether or not the guy in the passenger seat lives."

One thing I know from nearly fifty five years of running equipment, and offroad driving, and twice driving off the road, the driver's seatbelt keeps him in his seat and with better control of the vehicle, so the driver can make that last ditch effort to protect passengers, the vehicle, and the driver. The driver's seatbelt can have everything to do with whether or not the guy in the passenger seat lives. I wear mine.

Big10inch · Sep 7, 2018

Seat belts... My buddy never wears one. Claims it would have killed him in a rollover he had. He also witnessed someone burn to death in a roll over because they were trapped in the vehicle by the seat belt. Like I said earlier, safety equipment doesn't always keep you safe. I wear mine and it has saved me from additional injury a couple of times.

Better yet, Colorado strictly enforces a seat belt law, they love writing those tickets but, you can ride a motorcycle without a helmet... It isn't always about safety, sometimes it is about politics, control and revenue.

Murph · Sep 7, 2018

Big10-- I totally agree with you that it is your choice. I also agree with you that number of riders versus avalanche fatalities is a low statistical probability.

I agree that some people consider their avy gear a "magic blanket" of protection. I've seen riders forget to ride with their triggers out, check the pressure in their avy canister, forget to turn on beacons, beacons with dead batteries, etc, etc......

I do take exception to the term fallacy regarding avy safety gear. If we are looking at a statistical analysis of avalanche events in a given season, there are more avalanche events with survivors versus fatalities. Almost every rescue (vs recovery) was due to the use of avy gear and proper training.

It is your, and your riding buddies choice, to not wear avy gear. What I think gets some people (myself included to a certain degree) worked up is the fact that you could influence another rider to NOT wear gear. Maybe that guy doesn't have 20+ years of experience that you have riding in the mountains. Maybe that new rider doesn't check the avy reports, maybe he doesn't know what a terrain trap looks like. Will wearing avy gear save that guys life? Maybe, maybe not.

But lets help others go out with the best chance of surviving the day.

Big10inch · Sep 8, 2018

I agree Murph and we always try to school the newbies. Haven't lost one yet so we must be doing something right!

The original question was about not wearing a pack. The fact that several people responded with horror stories and the notion that you couldn't survive if you didn't carry your gear in a pack on your back is what prompted my response. I hate wearing a pack and therefore, I almost never do. I much prefer the freedom of movement and comfort provided by my tunnel bag. It has really improved my riding experience. I used to wear my avy pack full of gear. As the years have passed, I pack a LOT less than I used to. I do not think I have reached complacency though when it comes to safety, and I know that is the argument of some. I am very familiar with my surroundings after riding the same area for so long. If I took a trip into a new area I would likely go back to packing more gear. As it is I am comfortable with my riding group and my riding area and have also ditched much of the paranoia. So, YMMV is apt. It really depends on the circumstances.

I think we lose riders every year that are new to their riding areas, and maybe only get a couple of trips out west every year. If that was me, again, I would pack a lot more. That is why I always encourage people to find some locals to ride with. That local knowledge can be invaluable. Getting caught up in having to ride this or that because the trip is almost over, or getting carried away on deep days can be dangerous. Like you say, the gear may or may not save you in those situations.

I just could not see how brow beating others and assuming they were foolish and ignorant for not doing it a certain way was being productive. I do think many way over react and always assume the worst will happen. Being prepared is great, I think using your head when making decisions about when and where to ride is BY FAR the most important aspect, not how you carry your shovel.

Murph · Sep 8, 2018

Big10inch said:
I just could not see how brow beating others and assuming they were foolish and ignorant for not doing it a certain way was being productive....
Being prepared is great, I think using your head when making decisions about when and where to ride is BY FAR the most important aspect, not how you carry your shovel.

Understood about the brow beating.... I've been guilty of that-- especially regarding loud exhausts.

It's an emotionally charged topic-- especially for those of us who have lost friends in the backcountry or are called to do body recovery. You are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT that good decisions that keep us out of a slide in the first place are the best defense.

For me, I'll keep wearing my airbag, probe and shovel in pack, beacon charged up and turned on.

WhiskeyTee · Sep 9, 2018

Having personally out run 2 Avy’s. One I knew better and put myself in a stupid situation I could have easily avoided. The other was a complete surprise riding a groomed trail. I will NOT ride without all my Avy gear. EVER! Or will I ride with anyone that doesn’t at least have Shovel, probe and beacon on his body/pack and has been instructed in basic recovery!

frntflp · Sep 10, 2018

Shovel and probe on the tunnel, plus a shovel and probe in my Avy pack along with survival gear to spend a night out.

christopher · Sep 10, 2018

Big10inch said:
So you think I should believe the hype over my own long term experience?

Maybe 10 accidents a year out of a couple hundred thousand cumulative sledding days justifies the fear spread? I would be very curious to see real numbers on this. I do not think it is nearly as dangerous as some people espouse. Potentially dangerous but, that again is based on a lot of unsubstantiated fear.

So there in lies the DIFFERENCE between YOU and ME.

For me, its NOT HYPE at all.
Not even 1%.

But then I own several companies, all of which depend on me being alive to keep employees paid.
And a wife
And 4 children.

So when I go Skydiving, I carry a RESERVE CHUTE.
And when I go Cave Diving, I carry SPARE BOTTLES.
When I go rafting I wear a Wetsuit or Drysuit that Floats
When I go JetSkiing I wear a Flotation Vest

And while I have NEVER had to deploy my reserve chute even once in 30 years, its still there on every jump.

But I did suffer a EXTRAORDINARILY RARE ( 1 in 100,000) catastrophic 1st stage disintegration which resulted in a total loss of air while back in a cave in north Florida. I survived that only because I was well prepared to.

And so when "I" go riding, I always were a FULL SET of Avalanche gear.
Avy Bag
Shovel
Probe
Avy Beacon
Comms Gear
Emergency Locator Beacon

AND

I make damn well sure that every single person I am riding with does the same, even to the extent that I have THREE FULL SETS of space gear that I will loan out to anyone that I am riding with.

I NEVER want to be in the position of having to tell Mrs. Holm that her husband died because he was just being careless and refused to wear basic safety gear and died NEEDLESSLY as a result of it.

Not to mention the fact that by refusing to wear the gear, if and when you do get buried, someone is going to have to recover your dead body. Might be your buddies who were riding with you, might be a search and rescue team. But it almost all situations SOMEONE is going to be digging, and you are making their life a hell of a lot harder. And of course IF YOU ARE BURRIED ALIVE, well, man that sucks more than words can tell if you have NO BEACON and are found just a foot or so beneath the surface where you Suffocated and might have lived if you had an Air Bag on and had deployed it.

kanedog · Sep 10, 2018

Everybody calm down, just calm down.

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk

DDECKER · Sep 10, 2018

Big10inch · Sep 10, 2018

christopher said:
So there in lies the DIFFERENCE between YOU and ME.

For me, its NOT HYPE at all.
Not even 1%.

But then I own several companies, all of which depend on me being alive to keep employees paid.
And a wife
And 4 children.

So when I go Skydiving, I carry a RESERVE CHUTE.
And when I go Cave Diving, I carry SPARE BOTTLES.
When I go rafting I wear a Wetsuit or Drysuit that Floats
When I go JetSkiing I wear a Flotation Vest

And while I have NEVER had to deploy my reserve chute even once in 30 years, its still there on every jump.

But I did suffer a EXTRAORDINARILY RARE ( 1 in 100,000) catastrophic 1st stage disintegration which resulted in a total loss of air while back in a cave in north Florida. I survived that only because I was well prepared to.

And so when "I" go riding, I always were a FULL SET of Avalanche gear.
Avy Bag
Shovel
Probe
Avy Beacon
Comms Gear
Emergency Locator Beacon

AND

I make damn well sure that every single person I am riding with does the same, even to the extent that I have THREE FULL SETS of space gear that I will loan out to anyone that I am riding with.

I NEVER want to be in the position of having to tell Mrs. Holm that her husband died because he was just being careless and refused to wear basic safety gear and died NEEDLESSLY as a result of it.

Not to mention the fact that by refusing to wear the gear, if and when you do get buried, someone is going to have to recover your dead body. Might be your buddies who were riding with you, might be a search and rescue team. But it almost all situations SOMEONE is going to be digging, and you are making their life a hell of a lot harder. And of course IF YOU ARE BURRIED ALIVE, well, man that sucks more than words can tell if you have NO BEACON and are found just a foot or so beneath the surface where you Suffocated and might have lived if you had an Air Bag on and had deployed it.

Great. I get it. You do dangerous things that you fear and you think you are prepared for anything. I also remember when you were new to sledding and almost died on the damn trail because you were just plain stupid... That is the natural selection I was talking about LOL

It is not your responsibility to worry about me or mine, so please spare me the drama. I would turn down your spare gear and the "opportunity" to ride with you. Clearly you are too damn scared and insecure to be any fun on the mountain. I understand you think you are having fun but nobody that takes themselves that seriously could possibly be any fun to be around.

I didn't ask for your help OR your opinion... I can do without either.

It is just so ridiculous that you guys think you can cheat death, that you have it outsmarted with gear. That is the most naive notion in this whole thread. You should abstain from preaching, makes you sound stupid.

Popcorn worthy Decker? LOL

Prepared to be booted off the site for at least the fifth or sixth time....

Christopher, we are different in so many more ways than you can probably even imagine. Too bad we can't just agree to disagree like men. Thanks for taking it to the next level. NOT!

Big10inch · Sep 10, 2018

For an encore, you guys should all get together and find a Harley forum and start preaching to them about wearing helmets. Better yet, set up a "safety first" booth in Sturgis next year. You could save so many more lives! That common practice after all, is at least 100 times more dangerous than riding a sled in the mountains without 40 lbs of gear...

All I see is a bunch of self righteous clowns in the middle of a massive drama production. Best of luck saving the world from itself, even though, nobody asked you too...

goridedoo · Sep 10, 2018

I’m just happy the negative post ratings haven’t come out yet LOL

christopher · Sep 10, 2018

Big10inch said:
I didn't ask for your help OR your opinion...

Ya, Actually YOU DID.
Sorry you don't like the reply, but you asked me the question.
I was just being polite and replying back you.

Big10inch said:
So you think I should believe the hype over my own long term experience?

Big10inch · Sep 11, 2018

christopher said:
Ya, Actually YOU DID.
Sorry you don't like the reply, but you asked me the question.
I was just being polite and replying back you.

You are correct. It was so many posts back I thought you had forgotten about me...

It isn't whether or not I like your reply, I just find it rather self righteous, exactly as I expected.

christopher · Sep 11, 2018

Big10inch said:
You are correct. It was so many posts back I thought you had forgotten about me...

Sorry it took me so long.
I lost track of this thread while I have been focused on rebuilding the forums. Yesterday was the first time I had the time to read through it and respond to your question.

DDECKER · Sep 11, 2018

and yes! man I love debates to each there own but I love hearing both sides

christopher · Sep 11, 2018

Okay, finally took the time to read each and every post in this thread.
All in all its a very good discussion where pretty much the entire community agrees and there is only one lone voice crying out against what has finally after many long years become commonly accepted safety standards for Mountain Riding.

The discussion so reminds me of the LOUD EXHAUST debate which follows the same logic of SCREW EVERYONE ELSE, I will do whatever the hell I want to do and everyone else can be damned.

Or the guy who couldn't care less about riding into the WILDERNESS area thinking that it doesn't effect anyone but him.

Over and over again, in the sledding community, we see the actions of a TINY MINORITY having a huge impact on all the rest of us. Because its always the outlyer's actions that are brought to bear against all the rest of us.

The Guy with the ridiculously loud can, the guy riding in Wilderness, the guy flying past the Cross Country Skier or going across closed private property.

The more guys that die in Avalanches the more Negative attention that is drawn to our sport and more calls that go up from the Environmental Nerdowells that our sport needs to be REGULATED more and RESTRICTED to smaller and smaller "Safe" riding spaces. Its a vicious circle..

For the time being it is your RIGHT to ride naked.
For now I am not aware of ANY regulations demanding you to wear any safety gear of any manner at all.

But if history is any teacher, that won't last.
If we don't act responsibly, you can damn well bet, Uncle Sam will be MORE than happy to step in and demand that we do.

Big10inch · Sep 11, 2018

So it is your stated intention to help them along? What I read there is that because those who oppose us complain, you capitulate and give up your rights? That is progress? Did you just read all of the rights you have voluntarily given up to somehow make the sport more palatable to those who oppose it? Have you not heard of the concept of incrementalism? Where the opposition chips away at your rights until they are completely gone. No matter how much you give, they will take more, it NEVER ends, can't you see that? The claims about noise, pollution, environmental damage and now safety are all FALSE premises they are using to close us out of EVERYTHING. The end goal of these people is to destroy the sport, not just regulate it to their level of acceptance. Now you want to use peer pressure on me to further that agenda? You really are stupid.

christopher · Sep 11, 2018

Big10inch said:
So it is your stated intention to help them along? What I read there is that because those who oppose us complain, you capitulate and give up your rights? That is progress? Did you just read all of the rights you have voluntarily given up to somehow make the sport more palatable to those who oppose it? Have you not heard of the concept of incrementalism? Where the opposition chips away at your rights until they are completely gone. No matter how much you give, they will take more, it NEVER ends, can't you see that? The claims about noise, pollution, environmental damage and now safety are all FALSE premises they are using to close us out of EVERYTHING. The end goal of these people is to destroy the sport, not just regulate it to their level of acceptance. Now you want to use peer pressure on me to further that agenda? You really are stupid.

Problem is, SOME people in our sport make it EVER SO MUCH EASIER for the opposition to score an unending series of "wins" against us by playing right into their hands.

Carrying avalanche gear

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