Carrying avalanche gear

Big10inch · Sep 12, 2018

christopher said:
Problem is, SOME people in our sport make it EVER SO MUCH EASIER for the opposition to score an unending series of "wins" against us by playing right into their hands.

So please list for me all of your land use victories using your plan to appease them. How much land has been re-opened to snowmobiles because you have been quiet, laden with safety gear or stayed on your side of the imaginary boundary line?

What you call victories is when they only take a little at a time from you, claiming that they could have taken more right? Who is playing into who's hands here? Sledders have been losing land to the greenies since long before you even started riding. Now you are an expert? LOL They will continue to take until it is all gone and YOU are the one HELPING them dummy.

The proof is in the pudding. When your tactics of capitulation and appeasement start working to bring land BACK to the sport on a regular basis, I will be 100% on board. As it stands, your ideas have done, and will do nothing but cause us to lose more and more land every year.

Next you will try the "if we all banded together" BS line right? The truth is it wouldn't matter if every snowmobile owner in the country banded together united and gave 20% of their income to the cause. We would still be outnumbered and out funded by those wanting us shut down. That is the fact whether you want to see it or not. Fighting back, standing up for your rights are the only ways this will ever reverse itself. Playing nice with them is the dumbest, most dead ended plan ever. Clearly it is the one you have chosen...

So please list away... Show me how well your plan is working. It is a total cop out to blame it on the 10% you think are not playing along. I have run a club, I have worked on land use plans. I have negotiated on behalf of my fellow sledders with the USFS and BLM. I know EXACTLY how it works and know for a FACT that you are part of the problem rather than the solution. So please spare me your patronizing BS about how I am the problem.

Show me the land you have brought back to the sport smart guy...

summ8rmk · Sep 12, 2018

I like hearing how people process information and share their thoughts/ ideas.
We are all adults, i think we can continue debating without the name calling.
"Stupid" "dumb"
Honestly, there is no reason for that, it detracts from ur statement.

As for avy gear, my opinion is, nobody should be required to have it. Just like seat belts in automobiles. Wear it if u want to, don't wear it if u don't want to. (I wear it because i will get a ticket if i don't and i believe in an accident it will minimize injury)

I hate wearing a backpack, it restricts arm movement and slows me down But i do it every ride, with my shovel in there and some survival gear.

I have had my snowmobile in some precarious positions where i could not access the shovel on the sled with out digging the sled out first.......

The only thing i require from my riding partners, a radio, so i can talk to them when out of sight. I carry extra radios incase people don't have one.
If u don't have a radio, don't get out of sight from someone with a radio.

Extremely loud exhaust on a snowmobile is annoying and ammunition for land owners wanting to restrict riding near their property.

My opinions. Just sharing

christopher · Sep 12, 2018

summ8rmk said:
Extremely loud exhaust on a snowmobile is annoying and ammunition for land owners wanting to restrict riding near their property.

Sad but true.
I had a straight open pipe on my 275hp Viper a couple years ago.
Insanely loud
Had to wear hearing protection anytime I rode her.

Wildly FUN.!!!

But it was a POOR CHOICE on my part and i finally realized it the 2nd season. Now I try to keep the sled a little bit more "reasonable" and not go out of my way to offend people where I am riding.

Big10inch · Sep 13, 2018

summ8rmk said:
I like hearing how people process information and share their thoughts/ ideas.
We are all adults, i think we can continue debating without the name calling.
"Stupid" "dumb"
Honestly, there is no reason for that, it detracts from ur statement.

Unfortunately I think the discussion requires some strong adjectives. I thought "stupid" and "dumb" were actually quite tame. Can I use "foolish" and "naïve" still or is that still not playing nice enough?

I am just not sure how to react when someone with such a powerful online voice starts supporting capitulating with the enemy? It is a dangerous game being played with all of our rights to ride when the guy running the largest online sled forum starts advocating playing by the rules provided by those wanting to shut us out completely.

I understand that in todays wussified ( can I use that one with your permission?) society, that nobody wants to be the least bit confrontational. I get that it is easier to go along to get along but guys, come on, we keep losing with this plan. Is this seriously how you guys think we can regain access to public lands we NEVER should have been shut out of to begin with?

The more we go along, the more they take. It has never worked. I mistakenly made concessions in the past only to have them come right back wanting more. Anybody who has seriously worked on these issues knows this is the truth. Now we have our fearless forum leader suggesting mandatory safety gear could/should be next? If this attitude doesn't concern you, you might want to check and see which side you are on... Be very careful what you support. I have never seen more and more regulation become the solution, unless you are on the side trying to regulate others out of existence.

summ8rmk · Sep 15, 2018

This meme seems relevant.

Big10inch · Sep 15, 2018

Seems like code for "I can't support my opinions with facts". Just like the admissions you had to make that the gear might not save your life... At least you were honest enough to go there.

Christopher was definitely disrespectful, and rather condescending... That's OK though I suppose, you can give yourselves a pass. Two sets of rules, typical of the elitist mindset.

Yes you are entitled to your opinions, too bad you have so much trouble supporting them with facts. When pressed for verifiable facts your arguments fall apart and the room goes silent, I understand.

goridedoo · Sep 15, 2018

goridedoo said:
I’m just happy the negative post ratings haven’t come out yet LOL

LOL thanks for the negative ratings Mountaincat1, horns

Pickin’ Boogers · Sep 16, 2018

Clearly Big10 has made up his mind, and I'm not here to try to convince him otherwise. Hopefully his riding partners, and their loved ones, understand the implications.

But for anyone else who's still trying to figure this out: Wear your essential gear on your body, not on your sled. In an accident, you could become separated from your sled.

Comparisons to seatbelts and helmets are misleading. Those items protect the user. Avalanche gear is also for your friends.

The decision NOT to carry gear on your body has implications for your friends, and for their loved ones.

Ultimately, this decision is not a personal one, but a social one.

And if you ride in the West, you probably ride in avalanche terrain. Every season there are accidents involving people who thought otherwise.

slash · Sep 16, 2018

Lets see he's stuck in a small slide his head is sticking out behind a pile of debris we walk past him no signal from him oh wait he dosen't wear any avy gear . he dies during the night

bummer for his family but he didnt give a chit .

christopher · Sep 16, 2018

slash said:
Lets see he's stuck in a small slide his head is sticking out behind a pile of debris we walk past him no signal from him oh wait he dosen't wear any avy gear . he dies during the night bummer for his family but he didnt give a chit .

Pretty much...

FatDogX · Sep 16, 2018

Bottom line is, some people out there have a different thought process, good or bad and until something bad happens to them, a friend or family that hits home, their mind is made up.

The bad part is.......it takes something bad to happen that sometimes could have been avoided all together.

Big10inch · Sep 16, 2018

I just do not understand this fear, the notion that all you guys have that something bad WILL happen. Something bad COULD happen but accidents like this are EXTREMELY rare. Most of your daily lives are FAR more dangerous than sledding. Just riding in the car is far more dangerous.

I wonder how my riding partner has made it 50 YEARS riding in the mountains all over the west and not been killed, never had to dig anyone out. How in 15 years of my own experience have I NEVER been anywhere near having to dig myself or some one else out? I will tell you how, and it is not a false sense of security provided by a pile of gear, it is good decision making while riding.

You guys must doubt yourselves on every thing, every day. What is that like? I would say I feel bad for you but I really don't, I just find it all kind of pathetic really.

goridedoo · Sep 16, 2018

Big10inch said:
I just do not understand this fear, the notion that all you guys have that something bad WILL happen. Something bad COULD happen but accidents like this are EXTREMELY rare. Most of your daily lives are FAR more dangerous than sledding. Just riding in the car is far more dangerous.

I wonder how my riding partner has made it 50 YEARS riding in the mountains all over the west and not been killed, never had to dig anyone out. How in 15 years of my own experience have I NEVER been anywhere near having to dig myself or some one else out? I will tell you how, and it is not a false sense of security provided by a pile of gear, it is good decision making while riding.

You guys must doubt yourselves on every thing, every day. What is that like? I would say I feel bad for you but I really don't, I just find it all kind of pathetic really.

You are the toughest most fearless guy I know. I really envy you.

Just kidding.

Meadow Muffin · Sep 16, 2018

nregistered said:
Clearly Big10 has made up his mind, and I'm not here to try to convince him otherwise. Hopefully his riding partners, and their loved ones, understand the implications.

But for anyone else who's still trying to figure this out: Wear your essential gear on your body, not on your sled. In an accident, you could become separated from your sled.

Comparisons to seatbelts and helmets are misleading. Those items protect the user. Avalanche gear is also for your friends.

The decision NOT to carry gear on your body has implications for your friends, and for their loved ones.

Ultimately, this decision is not a personal one, but a social one.

And if you ride in the West, you probably ride in avalanche terrain. Every season there are accidents involving people who thought otherwise.

Very well said!! My feeling exactly. Thank you!

Big10inch · Sep 17, 2018

goridedoo said:
You are the toughest most fearless guy I know. I really envy you.

Just kidding.

Where in there was I being tough? I again just stated some facts, facts you and others are to scared to accept. Not one of you has been able to refute those facts over three pages of forum discussion. You continue to try and make this an emotional issue and take pot shots at me personally. Then when I fire back you cry like babies...

Is there a reason you are scared to look at the facts of the matter?

FatDogX · Sep 17, 2018

Facts???.....

The facts are simple and here is one.

"If" you ride in avalanche terrain, an avalanche can happen anywhere and anytime. Now if you strictly ride non aggressive, nothing vertical and remain in areas where statistically there have been no avalanches, then I guess you are fine. I for one ride Cooke City and well.....there have been avys that have killed guys on the trail!!!! So for me, avalanche gear and training it is, not only for me but my buddies, and everyone's families.

Big10inch · Sep 17, 2018

FatDogX said:
Facts???.....

The facts are simple and here is one.

"If" you ride in avalanche terrain, an avalanche can happen anywhere and anytime. Now if you strictly ride non aggressive, nothing vertical and remain in areas where statistically there have been no avalanches, then I guess you are fine. I for one ride Cooke City and well.....there have been avys that have killed guys on the trail!!!! So for me, avalanche gear and training it is, not only for me but my buddies, and everyone's families.

Well, that is getting closer to a sane response...

There are tons of riding opportunities on the mountains that do not require you to go into super dangerous areas. Making choices based on terrain and weather conditions greatly mitigates the chance of avalanches. Staying out of dangerous terrain does not mean you have to ride non aggressively, it just means staying out of the dangerous, slide prone areas. You guys that think that is the whole mountain just are not paying attention, or you are riding areas you probably shouldn't be. In that case, you are going to need a LOT more than avy gear because you haven't paid attention to your avy training.

DDECKER · Sep 17, 2018

ugh I hate actually talking in these discussions. But I do see both sides, If avy danger is there maybe not ride that day. maybe stick to flat meadows. When I Guide yes we give the newbie rider a beacon... But sorry in 15 min I cant teach you how to use it or set up a probe search grid, its more of a security blanket. I simply don't take them in any unsafe places, that's my job, Just like its all of our jobs come home safe....

Blk88GT · Sep 17, 2018

Big10inch - Out of curiosity, have you had any formal avalanche training, including companion rescue?

Big10inch · Sep 17, 2018

Blk88GT said:
Big10inch - Out of curiosity, have you had any formal avalanche training, including companion rescue?

Yes I have. 3 day course in Silverton a few years ago was the most recent. Several other one day events, well just two I can recall maybe 5 and 8 years ago.

The sad truth is, a beacon is more often a body recovery device than something that actually saves a life. If you need to do a search, the worst kind of mistake has already been made and your companion is already, more often than not, dead.

I still maintain that the BEST plan is to be aware and stay out of dangerous places especially on deep days. Avy training should be first and foremost a class on how to recognize dangerous places and dangerous conditions. Then it is up to you to use that knowledge to keep yourself out of trouble in the first place.

There are just way to many things that can go wrong. Stay away from the dangerous situations. It really isn't as hard as some of you make it sound, it certainly isn't impossible. It is what we should ALL strive for and it doesn't require any gear other than the brain god gave you. The rest just gives a false sense of security, which often leads to bad decision making and bad accidents.

I love this notion that I must just be ignorant to the dangers... Quite the opposite. I just trust myself and my friends to make good decisions. Hence many of my prior comments like stupid and dumb, because you would have to be to place yourself in that position. I have yet to read an avy death report that was pure accident, where good choices were made throughout. I have taken tons of heat on this site for calling out those mistakes and not being as compassionate as the bleeding hearts around here think I should be... Make good choices, stay alive, do not take a false sense of security in your gear or how your buddy's carry it. That is just CRAZY.

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