Installation and Review: SKINZ Protective Gear Concept A-Arms

TRUEBLUEMAX · Oct 27, 2011

I am going to wait until my sled is all back together and do it at ride height. One thing that I haven't looked at though is how much camber swing there is between full extension and full compression. Did you look at this at all Christopher?

Mister907 · Oct 27, 2011

christopher said:
Finally had time to correct my mounting error.
Got the upper A-Arm removed and exchanged for the correct one and mounted PROPERLY with the tip pointing UP rather than down!

Question to the Alignment Gurus!!

At which position do you make the vertical alignment on the spindles.

When the A-Arms are....

Hanging DOWN.

Sticking Straight Out "FLAT".??

Under full load, angled UP.

As the A-Arms move through the full range of motion I can see the bubble move back and forth slightly on the side that still has the OEM suspension on it.

With the A-Arms in a pretty neutral position sticking straight out.

You can see the slight angle to the spindle

And the Bubble shows it is NOT level

you might check the level of the sled first...if the sled is not level, you are not getting an accurate bubble. if you didnt already know that is. i had to tear out the front of my dads venture (and you thought your nytros were heavy??), after riding it down from the top to the cabin on one ski, with the other dangling. quite an extreme feat if you ask. anyway, i wasnt replacing anything but bent and broken parts with oem parts, but i just went with what looked close to the other side, and made sure it looked pretty plumb (the correct term for a vertical "leveling"). no problems with it last year, but he actually managed to stay on the trail with that pig most the time. you might want to do a little more investigating though,being this is your turbo mountain sled and not just a stock chunk of aircraft carrier. good luck. loving all your install threads and pics. you guys are making sitting around the house with a bum shoulder a lil easier to deal with, thanks!

christopher · Oct 27, 2011

ruffryder said:
?? 90 degrees is straight up...

Take the suspension at full droop, and then put it at full compression, then find the mid point and try doing the alignment there.

OK.
So using your gauge, my arms are at 180 degrees.
I am guessing I should try to align them at 210 degrees, or -30 from Horizontal.

graham_r · Oct 27, 2011

I have all the same Questions about my new CR Arms. I set mine up to what i thought looked right. Think I am going to get the dealer to take a look at them when i take the sled in for its Pre-season.

christopher · Oct 27, 2011

As of right now I am NOT enjoying trying to get this thing aligned.
The Bent Tie-Rods are making this more of a challenge than the straight ones would be.

Every Adjustment requires a degree of dis assembly of the tie rod from the spindle to twist the heim joint.

This is a serious amount of trial and error.

Trying to get the Camber right and the Toe Right is a real challenge!

graham_r · Oct 27, 2011

christopher said:
As of right now I am NOT enjoying trying to get this thing aligned.
The Bent Tie-Rods are making this more of a challenge than the straight ones would be.

Every Adjustment requires a degree of dis assembly of the tie rod from the spindle to twist the heim joint.

This is a serious amount of trial and error.

Trying to get the Camber right and the Toe Right is a real challenge!

Real pain in the @$$

christopher · Oct 27, 2011

I seriously feel like I am chasing my tail here.
Its not impossible to nail it, but it plenty frustrating.

Fix one thing and the other is out of whack.

Mister907 · Oct 27, 2011

hey, didnt i read somewhere in here somebudy said they found a complete tear down/rebuild for these things? might that info be in there??? cant figure out how to search on the site yet...operator error i assume.

Mister907 · Oct 28, 2011

Mister907 said:
hey, didnt i read somewhere in here somebudy said they found a complete tear down/rebuild for these things? might that info be in there??? cant figure out how to search on the site yet...operator error i assume.

k figured it out. tho i havnt figured out the bump feature. tnyto162 i believe found the manual from oregon trail. tho i assume you already have it, since you were a part of that thread.

tried to put a pic of the venture, not that it will help much,but if the pic loaded, you can see that nothing about it "looks" right. but i assure you we had no probs. but like i said earlier, youre probly guna wana relate yours too much to the venture. though on ours the front ends seem pretty much the same.

Mister907 · Oct 28, 2011

stil tryin to get that pic....there it is...tho not very good. you can see it looks prety funky.

and everybody else thot their garages were full?

christopher · Oct 28, 2011

GEEZ!
That is a WILD AMOUNT of TOE-IN!!

christopher · Oct 28, 2011

Mister907 said:
k figured it out. tho i havnt figured out the bump feature. tnyto162 i believe found the manual from oregon trail. tho i assume you already have it, since you were a part of that thread.

go to the thread and just REPLY to the last post.
That will bump it right to the top of the thread lists for everyone to see.

TRUEBLUEMAX · Oct 28, 2011

Ok if that Venture actually sits right when on the ground that is a ridiculous amount of bump steer. I know the Nytro has no visible bump steer when the skis are off the ground. I am getting all of my alignment done today so we will see how it goes.

ruffryder · Oct 28, 2011

christopher said:
OK.
So using your gauge, my arms are at 180 degrees.
I am guessing I should try to align them at 210 degrees, or -30 from Horizontal.

Not my gauge, mathematics gauge. I would do the alignment at 180 degrees, or 0 (same thing, completely horizontal), or somewhere around there. You do not want it at full droop, nor at full compression.

How are you doing this alignment? I normally take one ski, and make sure the handlebars are lined up perfectly with it. Straight bars with a straight ski, then I adjust the other ski to get it perfectly straight with the other one. Last you want to adjust you toe, so you adjust one ski or the other (or both by very small amounts) till you get the appropriate toe out.

You also need to do this with a bungie cord between the loops of the skis to pull them together a little bit, and you need to make sure your spindle / ski bushings are in good shape, along with everything else.

Does this make more sense?

christopher · Oct 28, 2011

ruffryder said:
How are you doing this alignment?

Skis off the sled.

Camber:
Using upper A-Arm adjustment to get the vertical alignment on each spindle at a ZERO on the bubble.

Toe:
Use the tie rod adjustment to get the measurement equal on the front (Spindle to Spindle) and on the Back (Spindle to Spindle) with a tape measure.

ruffryder · Oct 28, 2011

christopher said:
Skis off the sled.

? How accurate of a tape measure do you have?

christopher said:
Camber:
Using upper A-Arm adjustment to get the vertical alignment on each spindle at a ZERO on the bubble.

Why? Where did the 0 bubble spec come from? At what point in suspension movement is this spec supposed to be measured? I have never heard of a spec like that.

christopher said:
Toe:
Use the tie rod adjustment to get the measurement equal on the front (Spindle to Spindle) and on the Back (Spindle to Spindle) with a tape measure.

? How accurate of a tape measure do you have? I think the spec is 1/4" or something like that when measure the front of the skis vs the back of the skis... That might be smaller than an 1/8 comparing the spindles..

I think you are trying to get way to technical on this. Right after you get this all done, you are going to go on your first ride, hit a stump, and will be off the rest of the season without you noticing it.

ruffryder · Oct 28, 2011

dang, over the 75 post limit...

TRUEBLUEMAX · Oct 28, 2011

So I just got all of my alignment done on mine. I decided to set mine at normal ride height without rider. This put the suspension about 2/3 of the way up in the travel. I ran the suspension through its travel and there is a small degree of negative camber with the suspension extended and a small degree of positive with it compressed. I set it so as it swings through its travel it hits dead even in the middle.

Everything looks good on the toe adjustment. I checked off of the spindles and the skis and the spindles have about a 32nd variance which grows to about a sixteenth further out on the skis.

I will set the angle on the handlebars once I get everything all together and run it around the yard and see if it is straight.

I can't wait to get this thing on the snow and see how it works.

christopher · Oct 28, 2011

ruffryder said:
? How accurate of a tape measure do you have?

Why? Where did the 0 bubble spec come from? At what point in suspension movement is this spec supposed to be measured? I have never heard of a spec like that.

? How accurate of a tape measure do you have? I think the spec is 1/4" or something like that when measure the front of the skis vs the back of the skis... That might be smaller than an 1/8 comparing the spindles..

I think you are trying to get way to technical on this. Right after you get this all done, you are going to go on your first ride, hit a stump, and will be off the rest of the season without you noticing it.

FX Nytro Service Manual

Page 2-42
Ski Toe-Out: 0 ~ 15 mm (0 ~ 0.59 in)
Ski Stance, Center to Center 980mm

Skinz Protective Gear.

Important Note:
When installing the spindles, perform a check of the Camber Angle. When viewing the machine from the front, the spindles should be vertical. (0 degrees)

This should be checked after the front suspension is completely assembled.

One degree of negative camber is acceptable.

If adjusting is required, heim joints on upper and lower -Arms can be adjusted. Once adjusted be sure to tighten all the heim joint nuts. If possible, only make adjustment on the upper heim joint and they should be kept turned in as dar as possible. DO NOT extend heim joints out to widen front end.

MotoPsycho · Oct 28, 2011

christopher said:
Skis off the sled.

Camber:
Using upper A-Arm adjustment to get the vertical alignment on each spindle at a ZERO on the bubble.

Toe:
Use the tie rod adjustment to get the measurement equal on the front (Spindle to Spindle) and on the Back (Spindle to Spindle) with a tape measure.

All suspension measurements should be made at "normal ride height".

i.e. - these measurements should be made with the sled fully assembled, sitting on a level surface, and "shaken down" to the height the sled will sit if you just got off of it after riding 20 miles.

It is inherent in a long arm / short arm suspension that the measurements will change considerably depending on what attitude the suspension is at.

The service manual gives an acceptable "base" that will keep the measurements somewhat in spec throughout the suspension cycle.

That being said, camber, caster, and toe all change significantly through the top to bottom cycle of the suspension. To add to the frustration, there is also something called "Ackerman angle" that has to do with whether or not the skis are perfectly straight forward when doing adjustments. The toe can be 1/2" toe out with the skis forward... but crank the bars full left or right. It is even visually evident - the ski to the inside of the turn is at a much higher angle than the outside ski, and your toe is WAY OFF. The inner ski needs a larger angle because it is making a smaller "circle" in the snow than the outer ski. Your car or truck is the same way.

Shock pressures will also change initial camber angle. Camber angle changes toe... ALWAYS. Always IN A LONG ARM / SHORT ARM. Simple geometry. If you change shock pressures on the trail, you are also changing camber and toe.

If your sled is adjusted at the proper position from the start, it is engineered to work properly through the cycles.

Installation and Review: SKINZ Protective Gear Concept A-Arms

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