Will you take THE AVALANCHE CHALLENGE??

Leardriver said:

Convince me that people who have beacons don't rely on them as a crutch and assume more risk. I'm listening, and want to believe otherwise, but my eyes sure work. Come one! Convince me that my observations about the behavior change are wrong. Don't argue that having a beacon is better than not having one. That's a foregone conclusion. Let's have intelligent discourse rather than close-minded groupthink.

Click to expand...

While I understand your point concerning how carrying avalanche safety equipment can alter an inexperienced riders personal risk management levels, I certainly don't agree with downplaying the importance of carrying proper safety gear. If you are riding in mountainous terrain, carrying a beacon shovel & probe (at a minimum!) can save lives!

What if you were minding your own business in nice safe terrain and there happens to be a group of less experienced riders caught in a bad slide right near your location? Would you leave them to their fate? Personally, I would head over, pop my beacon into search and start getting people up on the surface as fast as I could.

There is definite merit to avalanche avoidance. Experienced, well-trained sledders are able to identify and avoid the vast majority of avalanche terrain. Unfortunately, even accessing safe mellow terrain usually involves crossing existing slide paths. And then there is the fact that experienced, well-trained sledders aren't exactly investing tens of thousands of dollars on a sled just to ride safe mellow terrain.

Modern snowmobiling is an adventure sport. People are willing to take certain risks in order to get a certain thrill. There is nothing you can do that is going to stop people from entering avalanche terrain. But we can teach good decision making! That is the main issue in my mind. It takes a commitment to safe practices, having the proper safety gear, educating yourself on the potential hazards, and staying up to date on the local conditions.

Beacons, shovels, probes, avalanche airbags... these are all tools. Tools designed to help save lives. In my mind there isn't a single valid argument against carrying them. Knowledge is also a tool. Unfortunately, you can't just buy it in a store. It takes time, training, and experience to acquire.

I always say, better safe than sorry. We only have one life to live and we cannot just put it at risk. The more gear that you have (beacon, probes, shovel), the better. When we're out there, anything can happen, and these tools may be the one that can make all the difference into getting back home - alive.

A Stubborn Friend!

This message is in reply to the first post that I wrote about my good friend who finally bought a Tracker 2 and retired his old dinasour. We took a trip up to Quartz Creek and Silent Pass BC last year in the middle of March. There were slides that had happened in more than a few places before we got there, so I was pretty concerned. I always say "It's not a great day until you made it back to the truck". After a day of hard riding, we did make it back and started to load up and head out. I noticed my friend, who bought the new Tracker 2, took off his coat. When I saw that there was no transciever strapped to his chest, I almost got sick to my stomach and asked where his transciever was? He said "In my butt pack"! At this point, I wanted to bitch slap him right there and ask him what the hell was he thinking. So I calmingly told him that if there is an avalanche and we are all in it, and the rest of us are buried except you, but your butt pack was ripped from your body, please tell me what your option is! Myself and others have your back! I need to know that you have the same concern. I don't care what kind of coat, or boots, or helmet someone wears. But they damn well better be wearing a transciever, and wearing it correctly! The next day when we were ready to ride out from the parking lot, I asked my other friend to check this persons transciever. He flipped his to search, pointed it to the other guys chest. That same person, you guessed it, pointed to his butt pack! At this point, I don't care if I hurt his feelings or not. My life is on the line, and THAT IS THE BOTTOM LINE! Any suggestions concerning this person would be helpful!

Can anyone point me in the direction for avy classes in Minnesota??

Would like to bring some friends out west that have never been but not without some real training.

Powderfreak56 said:

This message is in reply to the first post that I wrote about my good friend who finally bought a Tracker 2 and retired his old dinasour. We took a trip up to Quartz Creek and Silent Pass BC last year in the middle of March. There were slides that had happened in more than a few places before we got there, so I was pretty concerned. I always say "It's not a great day until you made it back to the truck". After a day of hard riding, we did make it back and started to load up and head out. I noticed my friend, who bought the new Tracker 2, took off his coat. When I saw that there was no transciever strapped to his chest, I almost got sick to my stomach and asked where his transciever was? He said "In my butt pack"! At this point, I wanted to bitch slap him right there and ask him what the hell was he thinking. So I calmingly told him that if there is an avalanche and we are all in it, and the rest of us are buried except you, but your butt pack was ripped from your body, please tell me what your option is! Myself and others have your back! I need to know that you have the same concern. I don't care what kind of coat, or boots, or helmet someone wears. But they damn well better be wearing a transciever, and wearing it correctly! The next day when we were ready to ride out from the parking lot, I asked my other friend to check this persons transciever. He flipped his to search, pointed it to the other guys chest. That same person, you guessed it, pointed to his butt pack! At this point, I don't care if I hurt his feelings or not. My life is on the line, and THAT IS THE BOTTOM LINE! Any suggestions concerning this person would be helpful!

Click to expand...

In your first post entitled "get rid if the dinosaur" I thoughtyou were going to mention old school riders. Your last post about stubborn riders quoted above addresses the issue better. I think there is a definite attitude held by SOME older riders that have survived the backcountry for many years without all this fancy smanchy new equipment we now have. I ride with a person similar to you. He is the only one person out of the four in our group that I ride with that doesn't have formal Avy training. He has ridden backcountry for twenty five years and is very knowledgeable due to his trial and error experience over the years and that kind of experience can be very useful to the rest of the group. However he gets stubborn about some of the most basic safety issues. He got me going westward about seven tears ago and he is kind of the guide in our group. He also serves as a good example of how NOT to introduce people into mountain riding. The first trip I went with him he slapped a beacon on me and away we rode all over Lionhead near West Yellowstone, MT right after a late december dump. I witnessed my first avalanche the first time out (actually two fairly big avalanches). They were naturally triggered (we were not in a position to have triggered them and one triggered the other) and nobody was buried or touched but the seemingly peaceful mammoth amounts of snow hurdling downward in your general direction was enough to make me start thinking for myself. I had no probe or shovel (the only one that did that entire trip was our fearless leader) and didn't know any better until I researched this stuff myself. To this day I cannot get this old timer to wear a backpack to carry a probe and shovel as he just upgraded to a tunnel bag. This is a vast improvement over the shovel and prove shoved into the seat storage but not nearly as safe as wearing them on your person. He has never bucked properly wearing beacons, but fat lot of good those do without a good shovel. The only reason I ride with him is the fact that I have two other friends that ride in our group that follow the rules VERY closely. I don't have to worry about things like spacing or one on a hill because we let our old school buddy go first in his usual guiding mode and we all space out properly and watch each others backs closely behind him. We have been in bigger groups with our friend, and refused to ride with them anymore when there was three and four on a hill, people taking a leak at the bottom of a runout with climbers on the hill, and people had plastic shovels and the like we said f you guys and rode just us three the rest of the trip. Nobody appreciates feeling like they're just there for rescue and shovel work and the point got across well. After that day my two friends and I refuse to ride with most people. At the most we are willing to ride with one new person at a time as long as they are willing to play by the rules, learn, and have the proper equipment. I really push the Avy classes too but if there is one new person who doesn't yet have training but is willing to do as we say and can show competence with his sled and safety equipment I will ride with that person. Anything else I will stay home because I know I'll just be poed the entire trip anyway. There are days I think I should refuse to ride with my old friend (who's like a father to me incidentally) but my persistence is paying off with him and at least he now understands that a decision of one member of the group is a group decision (as far as as safety call that is my other riding friends of the same group strongly agree with this). Also now I know these riding areas quire well and have experienced enough on my own and taught myself and have been taught enough to know when and what to avoid. Still though, the point of the story is that I should've been taught these things by the experienced leader I looked up to from the beginning. This is now my responsibility to pass on safe practices to people who look to me for the answers and experience as it should be for all of us in this position. At the end of the day it is my life and I will choose to ride with whoever I want, but I kinda happen to value my life a little bit.

rick5150 said:

Can anyone point me in the direction for avy classes in Minnesota??

Would like to bring some friends out west that have never been but not without some real training.

Click to expand...

http://www.avalanche1.com/class-schedule

I'm going to ride the steep and deep no matter what

But I always wear a beacon, have a shovel and probe on my person, and choose to ride with people who are equipped the same. plus I have an Avy Bag. I am CPR and First Aid Certified. when your back in the MTNS 40 or 50 miles from anything you want to be prepared for the worst. the first time you are around any kind of incident it will scare the chit out of you and you will realize how unprepared most people are. when that persons life is on the people in your group's shoulders. you get someone busted up real bad , in the back country. it's snowing like crazy, visibility is limited, there's no cell service. there's no way to get a medivac. What are you going to do and what are the people your with going to do?? are you able to keep that person warm, are you able to build a fire, who's going to stay, who's going for help. check for injuries, are they in shock, are they about to go into shock. It's very serious stuff. I only choose to ride with people who are well equipped and are going to keep me alive if that's me who is hurt or buried. FYI i'm attending an avy survival clinic 2morrow nite. SNOW DAMNIT!!

New beacon

The concept that getting a beacon makes one feel impervious can not be verified simply because the majority of riders who purchase their first beacon are new to mountain riding. If they engage in risky behavior it is because they don't know any better yet and we must give them some credit for making the investment in safety.

All of the info encountered in just one avy class can be a bit overwhelming and it would be difficult to remember all aspects of avy safety all at once. That's where you come in. If a newbie highmarks above a stuck sled or rips around on risky terrain let him know he made a mistake and explain why. Better yet, if another buddy gets stuck explain why you're observing from safety and not going up to help dig him out. Point out crown faces, convex rollovers and islands of safety when you stop before entering a riding area. Dig a freaking snow pit once in a while! Show him how much fun safe riding can be and remember that if he has his first brand new beacon he hasn't done this stuff much yet. It's not because his beacon makes him feel like Superman.

The ride out is a great time to remind him of things like one person on avy angled slopes at a time. Get him stuck enough times and he'll appreciate how difficult digging to rescue him would be. Keep taking avy classes so he will know that it is cool. Be a great role model and give him the tools to pass down to others.

Simple answer ...

Take an Avy course (or 2 or 3), get the proper gear and always have it with you (and make sure your buddies do the same) ... Simple.

After you take your Avy course you should be able and capable to make smart decisions about when and where to sled ... Knowledge will always win over ignorance.

22 of us just completed an avalanche class put on by Mike Duffy. Well worth the money!!!

Been riding for four years now, thought about avalanches a little last year and really thought about them this year. A friend and I were able to take a class with Brian L. of Tyler's ba, and after the class I have two beacons/probes, four other friends with them ordered also. For the friends that didn't get to go to the class we will be teaching them what to do when something goes wrong. And one other friend that I ride with unfortenly brushed the class off and "didn't want to spend $300 on the beacon/probe" and we had a trip planned soon for six of us to ride togwotee but now highly considering bailing out.

turbokitty11 said:

Been riding for four years now, thought about avalanches a little last year and really thought about them this year. A friend and I were able to take a class with Brian L. of Tyler's ba, and after the class I have two beacons/probes, four other friends with them ordered also. For the friends that didn't get to go to the class we will be teaching them what to do when something goes wrong. And one other friend that I ride with unfortenly brushed the class off and "didn't want to spend $300 on the beacon/probe" and we had a trip planned soon for six of us to ride togwotee but now highly considering bailing out.

Click to expand...

Kudos on taking the class and getting the necessary gear. It's good that you will be passing the info onto your friends, but if I were you, I would push them really hard to take a class of their own. Be safe out there!!!

kevinm7 said:

Kudos on taking the class and getting the necessary gear. It's good that you will be passing the info onto your friends, but if I were you, I would push them really hard to take a class of their own. Be safe out there!!!

Click to expand...

I am pushing them for sure to take it

tar said:

I don't care what anyone thinks, I always wear my beacon, carry probes and a shovel, and so do the people I ride with.

My riding buddy Dan left his beacon is his truck. 1/1/08
He never thought he was going to die that day in an avalanche.
It took 2 days to find him.There were at least 20 people with probes looking.

Wearing a beacon may not have saved his life but we could have found him a lot sooner.

If you go in the back county just wear your beacon it's just that simple.

Oh yea, put in new batteries.

Ride smart stay alive.

Tar

Click to expand...

I have to agree with you friend. Carrying probes and a shovel will always be a smart thing to do. Even if it is more inconvenient and you have to carry a little more weight. It is all about surviving.

:amen:

Here I'll bump it back to life. This is what happened to me Saturday

christopher said:

Time to bump this back to life for the 2015 season!

Click to expand...

Saturday in the trees at Revelstoke. Here's a pic of my convo to my friend who runs the main Avy control center for the state of Alaska

Hello 2017/18!!

Getting amped for the new season and spending time on the forums... Who am I kidding, I read the sled forums year round... Thought I'd refresh this oldish post that is still relevant 7 years later. I too am an aviator like a few of those that have replied. Pilots as a community have been dealing with risk management and decision making for over a hundred years now. I see many parallels in the "relatively" young backcounty community that I enjoy so much. I agree with some of early posts regarding a newly acquired beacon may give a rider a sense of safety (falsely). The same argument could be made regarding airbags. That said, I own and ride with full equipment including my new Pieps 10 airbag. I can't say I've personally seen riders get extra brave once they sport new gear, but I CAN tell you I have seen pilots push the limits because they now have a parachute or a new plane that is more capable. We are dealing with human nature and it doesn't matter whether we are talking about flying, snowmobiling or riding dirt bikes. My experience has taught me that most don't get hurt or killed because of lack of skill, but rather poor head work (decision making). Why do people make poor decisions? There are several reasons including: Lack of knowledge, lack of awareness, ego, prior experience and others. The subject of prior experience has been touched on in prior replies about the friend or mentor that has been riding out west for years without a problem. I was introduced to mountain riding by someone very similar to the person described earlier. I've been working on him and a couple others I've ridden with. Although I haven't had any luck getting him to take Avy training, this year I plan to try something. One of the places I ride has beacons for rent. I am going to rent a beacon and proceed to do beacon hide and seek training with him in a safe place early on our first day of riding. At the very least, he will gain (some) experience with the equipment that could save my life and maybe (just maybe) he will feel guilty that I spent my own money to help outfit him, that he may chisel open his wallet and purchase his own. We'll see... Some are stubborn and difficult to change, but I value his friendship so I'll keep trying even as my riding group evolves.

Some 35 years ago when I earned my first pilots certificate, the examiner handed my temporary certificate to me with these words... "This is your "license" to learn..." Now these many years later, I look back with Airline Transport Pilot & Flight Instructor certs in my wallet and reflect how scary I must have been back in 1982 with my new "license". I was safe and met the requirements of that first certificate, but I was very inexperienced. I had good instructors for my foundation, but I have flown with other guys since that scared the hell out of me. I've made MANY mistakes over the years, but by GODS grace, I haven't bent any planes or hurt anyone. I have however lost a few friends along the way (maybe similar to other Mountain riders here). Some, better aviators than I will ever be. One of my grey haired mentors along the way taught me there is no such thing as a perfect flight. There is ALWAYS something that could have been done better. We debriefed after each mission and had a "candid" discussion without any consideration for ego. That's not always easy to do. But if you have a desire to learn and improve its a worthy process. If we can have a candid and thoughtful discussion at the end of the riding day, we might just learn something that we happened to miss during the ride. Those debriefings can be over a beer if you still have your wits about you and can help improve our awareness for the next day.

Hopefully this will be received in the spirit it is meant, and not to be preachy. I have a long way to go in my mountain skills and decision making, but we each bring our own history (and baggage) if we are lucky enough to make it into our silver years.
Here are a couple links I find value in and look forward to your replies.

https://backcountryascender.com/

http://www.backcountryawareness.org/

http://flatheadavalanche.org/throttle-decisions-avalanche-safety-snowmobilers

Pitch

Our group has been through Mike Duffy’s class 3 times, we have all practiced using our beacons in the summer and felt we were proficient with our equipment. Over New Years last year our group went to the Next Level clinic in Alpine. Dan and Blair man and the crew put us through some realistic avalanche training on the mountain with people yelling and pushing us to feel the pressure and stress of a real avalanche. We killed our simulated riding buddy a couple times that day, we were not as skilled with our beacons as we thought we were and we didn’t communicate like we needed to. We were completely dejected when we got to the hotel that night, but we all talked about what went wrong and how to fix it. We have practiced multiple times since then on the snow and feel like we could today have a reasonable chance to save someone. We go through this process whenever we bring along someone new and have had friends that are on search and rescue fail in this scenario... My point is this, it is great to get classroom training and Mike Duffy is one of the very best ( I will go to one of his classes again this year if possible) but there is no substitute for on the snow training with some external pressure to make your group learn to communicate and know your equipment dead to rights. We have decided that if we have someone new with us when an avalanche occurs they will either stay off to the side as a spotter for secondary slides or will turn their beacon off and start assembling shovels as they walk behind the guys reading the beacons. False confidence in our knowledge of our equipment and training caused us to fail, thank god it was practice and not one of our buddies buried.
I hope all of us have an epic season, be safe.
Meadow Muffin