R
What NOT to do....
- Thread starter rhalloran
- Start date
:jaw:There's these things called gloves an a object called a shovel handle and a device that each individual should have called a beacon. That guy is lucky to be alive with how unprepared and disorganized his partners were thank god he wasnt buried deep and his head and hand were exposed
WOW!!:face-icon-small-sho
B
That's scary, hope my buddies are a bit more prepared than that
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What's with the guy in the background, just twiddling his thumbs? This video is hard to watch. I would of been to embarrassed to post this video.
Looks like a good group to stay away from.
My hands are cold.
I'm stuck. Do you want help?
Your buddy is burried. You have six minutes but be sure to come unprepaired and take your time.
My hands are cold.
I'm stuck. Do you want help?
Your buddy is burried. You have six minutes but be sure to come unprepaired and take your time.
That was very painful to watch.
I could not watch the entire video. Way too painful. So many things wrong with that video I don't even know where to begin. If I was the guy buried I would kick my friends ars if the every finally got me dug out....Unbelievable! Only calm one is the guy buried and he should have been the hysterical one. WOW!!!
P
Always something to learn from an incident, even when the task itself is done poorly. The group still reached the desired end state. Did they get there properly? Some will say no and be correct. Some may say that with what they had available, they were successful. I feel they were successful. Should they have been in the backcountry to begin with. ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!!
They obviously had a plan given their resources. Again, not enough resourses to go around so shoud not have been in the situation at first.
All the things mentioned in previous posts were obvious mistakes that they got away with.
Some things that went right. They appeared to be in a safety zone while only one skier was descending. The zone may have been a touch close. Could have improved that.
They kept an eye on him and apparently designated a spotter, although, that became unclear as the incident unfolded due to one spotter (the guy talking) had no beacon and had to detract feom his watch. The other spotter(it seemed to me) was wearing the beacon yet was not qualified to perforn the rescue. Remember, not everyone has to jump in and start after the buried party. There CAN and HAVE been secondary avalanches that have buried would be rescue parties.
This brings me to my next point. The one guy said, you do not need a beacon, you can see him right there. WRONG! A secondary avy could come and bury him. I am assuming he did not put the beacon on and in the case of a secondary, the beacon could have been ripped feom his hands and rescuers might only find a buried beacon.
The obvious mistakes are obvious and the group put themselves in great danger. However, if we take time to critically think about an incident, we can pull out the finer points. I can't tell you the amount af times I have seen a full group of the party trying to perform a rescue on a multi camber slope that could easily rip again. Usually it goes ok. However, something to think about. Everyone wants to help. Sometimes helping means staying out of dnger from the worst case senario.
It is hard not to judge in a senario such as this and trust me, I did. However, I continued to watch as I was interested in if they would be successful and how.
Strange how the guy with the camera seemed so calm, yet he was clearly freaked out and made mistakes a plenty. Gloves, shovel handle, all things mentioned and of course more. It does a lot to keep a group calm to speak calmly and encourage someone to slow down. Slow and steady is fast. Check in with youself before engaging. Take 10 seconds to gather and prepare yourself. 10 seconds in the beginning can save a minute later.
The one thing I did judge, is what a pus the guy was to stop digging to warm up his hands while the buried dude dug himself out. Again, acted calm, but clearly all over the place and frantic.
My point is. High risk, low frequency events will not always go perfect (this one far from perfect), but if we think critically about an incident and remove judgement, we can better prepare ourselves and our group for success in the backcountry.
Stay humble as we all make mistakes in our lives.
I am glad they made it out and I hope they learn from this as I did and I hope others do as well.
Spelling might be jacked due to iPad so I apologize. Also, not attacking anyone here, just my humble opinion that this is still an excellent learning tool beyond the obvious mistakes.
Thanks for letting me take up you valuable time with my rant
Later
They obviously had a plan given their resources. Again, not enough resourses to go around so shoud not have been in the situation at first.
All the things mentioned in previous posts were obvious mistakes that they got away with.
Some things that went right. They appeared to be in a safety zone while only one skier was descending. The zone may have been a touch close. Could have improved that.
They kept an eye on him and apparently designated a spotter, although, that became unclear as the incident unfolded due to one spotter (the guy talking) had no beacon and had to detract feom his watch. The other spotter(it seemed to me) was wearing the beacon yet was not qualified to perforn the rescue. Remember, not everyone has to jump in and start after the buried party. There CAN and HAVE been secondary avalanches that have buried would be rescue parties.
This brings me to my next point. The one guy said, you do not need a beacon, you can see him right there. WRONG! A secondary avy could come and bury him. I am assuming he did not put the beacon on and in the case of a secondary, the beacon could have been ripped feom his hands and rescuers might only find a buried beacon.
The obvious mistakes are obvious and the group put themselves in great danger. However, if we take time to critically think about an incident, we can pull out the finer points. I can't tell you the amount af times I have seen a full group of the party trying to perform a rescue on a multi camber slope that could easily rip again. Usually it goes ok. However, something to think about. Everyone wants to help. Sometimes helping means staying out of dnger from the worst case senario.
It is hard not to judge in a senario such as this and trust me, I did. However, I continued to watch as I was interested in if they would be successful and how.
Strange how the guy with the camera seemed so calm, yet he was clearly freaked out and made mistakes a plenty. Gloves, shovel handle, all things mentioned and of course more. It does a lot to keep a group calm to speak calmly and encourage someone to slow down. Slow and steady is fast. Check in with youself before engaging. Take 10 seconds to gather and prepare yourself. 10 seconds in the beginning can save a minute later.
The one thing I did judge, is what a pus the guy was to stop digging to warm up his hands while the buried dude dug himself out. Again, acted calm, but clearly all over the place and frantic.
My point is. High risk, low frequency events will not always go perfect (this one far from perfect), but if we think critically about an incident and remove judgement, we can better prepare ourselves and our group for success in the backcountry.
Stay humble as we all make mistakes in our lives.
I am glad they made it out and I hope they learn from this as I did and I hope others do as well.
Spelling might be jacked due to iPad so I apologize. Also, not attacking anyone here, just my humble opinion that this is still an excellent learning tool beyond the obvious mistakes.
Thanks for letting me take up you valuable time with my rant
Later
Pwder: thank you very much for your comments. Many of us, me especially allow initial emotion to dominate comments and opinions. I take avalanche safety and practices very seriously and get quite mad when multiple back country enthusiasts put their own life and others at risk like this. I am far from being an expert and never feel prepared "enough" but there are many Precautions that are neglected continuously by skiers and sledders that can easily escalate to this and beyond. Time to get our head out of the sand folks because yes it can happen to any of us at any given time. That is the risk we take each day we travel into the Bc but please please prepare ourselves for the worst and prevent the things we can. Sorry it got long. Cheers and enjoy the snowy season that I love so much!
-papa
-papa
P
Absolutely Papa. I take it pretty serious myself as we all should and things went horribly wrong that could have been prevented by this group by having everyone prepared.
Makes me wonder, did they dig a pit? Even check the forcast? Know the terrain and UNDERSTAND the snow conditions. Maybe one or two or none or maybe all. Still a good learning experience.
I said in another post of mine. I did a snowboard descent on a BLACK (what!? I must be crazy) day. My slope was steep enough to slide and big enough to go huge! I knew my area and knew the conditions very well. I felt black was not representative of my slope. Dug a pit, liked what I saw and crushed my line! Super fun!
On the flip side, I have walked away from slopes that were prety darn welded, but it just wasn't right for our group that day. Still had a ton of fun in another zone.
Sorry, I feel like babbling today.
Makes me wonder, did they dig a pit? Even check the forcast? Know the terrain and UNDERSTAND the snow conditions. Maybe one or two or none or maybe all. Still a good learning experience.
I said in another post of mine. I did a snowboard descent on a BLACK (what!? I must be crazy) day. My slope was steep enough to slide and big enough to go huge! I knew my area and knew the conditions very well. I felt black was not representative of my slope. Dug a pit, liked what I saw and crushed my line! Super fun!
On the flip side, I have walked away from slopes that were prety darn welded, but it just wasn't right for our group that day. Still had a ton of fun in another zone.
Sorry, I feel like babbling today.
Years ago I was a 22 yr old kid from MN that jumped on a plane in November and took a winter job at Rustler's lodge in Alta, Utah.. I had skied locally since I was old enough to walk but had never been in the mountains before. Long story short I spend the last 2 months skiing backcountry with friends completely unprotected and absolutely oblivious to any consequences. No beacon, no shovel, no probe, nothing but my skis, poles, and a camelback. I was very lucky. We rode some big terrain on DEEP snorkel days. In fact I actually used a snorkel a few times. Man I was nieve. I am old enough now to recognize that when it comes down to it I am the only one to blame for being so irresponsible but I can't help feeling that the resort should have prepared all of us for what risks were involved in big mnt riding. Instead it was here is your room, here is your job requirements, and smile for the picture, here is your lift pass... Stay out of Trouble! I guess what I am trying to say is we should all be responsible in furthering all back country enthusiasts avalanche awareness. I sure wish someone would have smacked me into reality back then. :light::light::moony:
I'm speechless.
P
Alta is cool, but inbounds. As far as being backcountry without avy gear, yup you're a knicklehead, but you learned and are taking it more serious. Speaking of inbounds vs out. I still wear a beacon and avy pack inbounds and have been for years. A few years ago (I think it was Dec 08) we had a death on Baldy due to an inbounds burial.
R
I lived @ Alta/Snowbird 25 years ago. Worked at the Rustler, even.
Back then, not many people had beacons. Very, very few. I had one, an old Ortovox, I think, so I could get past the patrol checkpoint @ the top of Gad2. I did not even carry it when I went across the street - no point, none of the other people had one. We all convinced ourselves that Superior was safe because they bombed it, too (that might actually hold SOME water...).
That video is crazy. The first minute or so, where the Beacon Protector Girl is trying to dislodge The Beacon is told to "take her time."
really? You're freaking kidding.
Anyway.....yikes.
Back then, not many people had beacons. Very, very few. I had one, an old Ortovox, I think, so I could get past the patrol checkpoint @ the top of Gad2. I did not even carry it when I went across the street - no point, none of the other people had one. We all convinced ourselves that Superior was safe because they bombed it, too (that might actually hold SOME water...).
That video is crazy. The first minute or so, where the Beacon Protector Girl is trying to dislodge The Beacon is told to "take her time."
really? You're freaking kidding.
Anyway.....yikes.
P
25 years ago at AltaBird.....Oh man! i wish I was so lucky. Now it gets knocked out so quick inbounds and even across the street is getting crowded!
I am straight backcountry now.
I am straight backcountry now.
R
Very true Papa, but the skiier who was trapped in the avalanche was just as much to blame, First, Riding with Unprepared partners, 5 people should have had 5 beacons, shovels, and probes, and know how to use them. Second, skiing sketchy terrain, without knowing the conditions, that wind slab looked sketchy from the video, and we all know video and/or photos never do justice. The Group I ride with I trust with my Life, and they with me. Don't have the Basic gear, and a basic understanding of avalanche safety, you will not ride with Me! I hope more see this video, and take as a learning tool...of what not to do. The Only thing they seem to do correct, they did not panic....but at the same time, seemed to move with a lack of urgency.
we all watched this new years eve with a my regular group... We were sickened by it to say the least... We live in this area and there were huge avy warnings and already 3 deaths in bounds at the resorts including a ski patrol.
They did a few things right like leaving people on the ridge in case of a second slide... but the "rescuer" should have come down the debris field not threw fresh snow. and since they only had 2 beacons between them the rescue guy did have to take it with him till he saw the hand sticking out...
O by the way if your saving me and you are brushing off the top of my helmet and not giving me an air way I am gonna come out swinging!!! The first thing you do is open up the air way!!! and shovel your but off!!!
When we train together we focus on digging. A lot of people can find a location in a reasonable amount of time but then when it comes to digging they fail! And what is up with they other guy just watching and you can here him in the video say that the other shovel is stuck in the pack!!! Get it out!! You have had 10 min to figure it out!
as for gloves you have to keep them on... main reason... if you have to use your probe your hands heat up the probe quicker and cause it to make an ice ball on the end eventually making the probe useless... little fact a lot of people don't know.
not going threw the whole video since I would write an essay on it but these were just a couple things I wanted to throw out there.
Keep practicing! Hope these guys don't think that just cause they were successful getting their friend out that they are good to go. Very sad to see in so many ways!
They did a few things right like leaving people on the ridge in case of a second slide... but the "rescuer" should have come down the debris field not threw fresh snow. and since they only had 2 beacons between them the rescue guy did have to take it with him till he saw the hand sticking out...
O by the way if your saving me and you are brushing off the top of my helmet and not giving me an air way I am gonna come out swinging!!! The first thing you do is open up the air way!!! and shovel your but off!!!
When we train together we focus on digging. A lot of people can find a location in a reasonable amount of time but then when it comes to digging they fail! And what is up with they other guy just watching and you can here him in the video say that the other shovel is stuck in the pack!!! Get it out!! You have had 10 min to figure it out!
as for gloves you have to keep them on... main reason... if you have to use your probe your hands heat up the probe quicker and cause it to make an ice ball on the end eventually making the probe useless... little fact a lot of people don't know.
not going threw the whole video since I would write an essay on it but these were just a couple things I wanted to throw out there.
Keep practicing! Hope these guys don't think that just cause they were successful getting their friend out that they are good to go. Very sad to see in so many ways!
P
Good call on coming down the desbris field. Always things to analyze on gone wrong senarios. The second beacon thing is tough. Yup saw the hand.....leave it and in case of seconday at least one has a chance of rescue. Keep it and possibly another party just luckily (they had a lot) comes by and can assist in case of a secondary. Or keep it and have body revovery. Morbid but all things to think about ahead of time so it will be a little more automatic
As far as clearing the airway, good call. Upon first watch, I thought he had, but then he chucks the shovel?:face-icon-small-sho
All good points Motor. I love that you mentioned practicing with your buddies. I know I have had my share with partners. I wonder how many actually practice as close to real senarios. Just at your one class a year isn't enough.
Always good to have your group practice together. That way we can really discuss what we did well and what we need to work on and move toward automatic, correct, reaction.
Nice post motor
As far as clearing the airway, good call. Upon first watch, I thought he had, but then he chucks the shovel?:face-icon-small-sho
All good points Motor. I love that you mentioned practicing with your buddies. I know I have had my share with partners. I wonder how many actually practice as close to real senarios. Just at your one class a year isn't enough.
Always good to have your group practice together. That way we can really discuss what we did well and what we need to work on and move toward automatic, correct, reaction.
Nice post motor
U
Here's a shovel, dig yourself out, my hands are cold. Wow. This guy is lucky he wasn't down a few feet. They would not have got him out. Nice to see the second person putting in so much effort... Not
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