I Rode REV4 Chassis for the first time, very confused...

[matchrocket]

Polaris AXYS rider for a number of years. Per subject, rode a Summit Expert 165 Turbo this weekend. The experience left me scratching my head and I have some honest questions. This is not a brand war post. I have some very genuine questions about this platform.

Sled setup was 100% stock, except for KMOD T-Motion Lockout, and the limiting strap was full out.

Weight or Perceived Weight:

The front end of this sled felt HEAVY when riding. Significantly more so than any Acennder or AXYS I've ever been on. I also found that moving back on the boards will not unload the front end, or does so very little. This is a huge change from what I am accustomed to. This made it a chore to get on the edge on a steep sidehill, and I was completely unable to do turn-ups in steep terrain. From a stop, planting your foot on the back of the board and blipping the throttle would not initiate a hard-on-edge like the AXYS or acceder platforms. Body English on flat ground to start a carve took WAY MORE effort on the bars than I am used to as well. I need almost zero input on the bars to start a turn / lean my axys with a 36" front end. Where here, I had to use the bars to get it over and help hold it. Body weight would just " roll" the sled but not initiate an edge. Again, it feels like the front end is extremely heavy.

Placing my feet as far forward as I could just make things MUCH morse difficult, as the inside ski would just burry its self and you were fighting the sled and the terrain at that point. This was a pointer given to me to help initiate turns.

Skis and Harsh Feedback:

The snow conditions were not great, but very decent. We had about a foot of soft with a crust under. When trying to carve or hold an edge, the sled really liked to bounce the nose up and down, and the skies would dart left/right a lot causing a lot of effort from me to keep it moving where I wanted. It took a lot of energy to keep it on track and fight the tendency to dive in turns.

Running across tracks was very punishing as well. The skis would dart around when going over them and you had to really fight it.

Power / Smoothness:

Wow... I'm impressed. Extremely linear power delivery, great bottom end, smooth build-up, and @ 8000ft this makes my 800 with a pipe/can feel like a pig. I really like how the turbo delivers power in this setup. Very smooth, predictable and still is a stump puller on the bottom end. I could get used to that in a hurry.

Track / traction etc.

Hard to say much about the track, was go anywhere snow, but it hooks up well and offered great traction in some steeper climbs. Honestly felt like it got on the snow better than my axys in the deeper spots I found in the trees.

Questions:

These sleds can't be this hard to ride, or they would not be selling. I've heard that you can't just "switch" between Doo and Poo, but the way it felt/rode seems extreme to me. Was I fighting a huge learning curve issue or was this sled just setup really poorly. I can't overstress that the front end felt like 100lbs more than my axys, AT LEAST. Limiting strap adjustment was full out, verified that.

The skis are really skinny, do people swap them out to get better flotation? Is the bouncing / diving nose behavior normal? Can this be tuned out?

Upper body input requirements are also MUCH higher than I expected due to body English having no impact on the chassis. Same as the above questions... Something has to be wrong here.

What is considered a normal foot position *Front to back* on this sled? My axys I have my toes about 3 to 4 inches behind the toe loops in neutral riding, and about 12 inches back when cutting a steep sidehill to keep the front end light and easy to move around. Further back if I want to snap the front end around. What is considered normal for Doo's? I felt like my foot placement didn't really have any significant impact on chassis dynamics and that felt really odd to me. Again goes back to that front end feeling like it was 100lsb more than the AXYS or Ascender platforms.

Feedback welcome, thanks!

 

[Motorbreath_]

Sounds like the front track shock is blown out or something.. I went from a 2016 SKS 800 to a 2017 SP Summit 165 and even though the Summit was like 30-40lbs more.. it didn't feel like that way.

I'm sure the reason Polaris came out with the Khaos was to make ski-doo riders switch to Polaris. Their thought was Ski-doo riders liked a light front end feel, where as the Pro is very planted in the front.

I'd find another one to try if I were you. Also, you don't ride a summit like a pro.. so there is a little learning curve, but its not the end of the world.

 

[10003514]

That's about what I would expect to hear from an Axys riders first ride on a G4. They are different animals and need to be approached differently. Polaris has a more predictable light weight chassis while skidoo has everything under the hood and track going for it. To get the full experience you would need to spend a few days on a skidoo. They are a very capable sleds and more fun to ride in mellower terrain than an Axys. If all you do is ride very technical terrain you are going to work more to get there with the skidoo but it will still do it no problem. There are major gains to be made with skidoo's suspension and skis (not a fan of the deep keel design). After owning all 3 brands, skidoo for me has been the most trouble free well rounded sled mile after mile, main reason why they sell so many in my opinion.

 

[PaulAnd]

So the sled you rode has a kmod skid?
K motion looks like upgrade for a kmod skid?
Ride a stock TDoo, stock settings with ski’s in narrow! Win for me!
I weight 200lbs geared up
Snow conditions matter!
Super deep days is where it shines the most!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Thielio20]

Polaris AXYS rider for a number of years. Per subject, rode a Summit Expert 165 Turbo this weekend. The experience left me scratching my head and I have some honest questions. This is not a brand war post. I have some very genuine questions about this platform....

From my experience I think the suspension wasn't setup properly at all for you, too much sag in the front. 1st weekend on my 165 turbo I felt the same way, especially compared to my 2017 154 summit. I adjusted the front suspension and rear torsion springs which helped a ton. The sled should be pretty effortless to initiate turns and carving on mellow terrain.

Also in my opinion you're correct on the skinny skis, I find they're really punchy in anything but blower snow conditions. I put on SLP mowhawks and other friends use the Polaris Grippers, I think the surface area and more rigid ski stopper helps a lot.

As for foot position, I think that's subjective to every rider & setup. But @ 210 lbs with gear I'm about 1.5 ft back on the running boards when in a neutral position. I run CFR bars and a 3" CFR risers.

 

[Ace Freely]

These sleds benefit from a pair of Grippers. Sounds like the suspension was too soft. These impressions are not surprising! Takes a bit to get comfortable on one from a Poo!

Ace

 

[JH@CM]

Bottom line is, they are very different, and suspension setup is critical. The Axys naturally wants to hold a line. Gen4 wants to wobble. Gen4 feels like an easier sled to turn, but it's harder to keep on edge than the Axys. The Axys front end feels like it floats a little more, and Gen4 is naturally more "in" the snow. Axys tracks better across old tracks, Gen4 is more disrupted. These are common observations, as you noted.

I ride my buddy's Pro 850 occasionally and it's so different compared to the Gen4 850T. Just a different style sled and takes different input to ride. Surely he would change settings on mine, and I would change things on his if we swapped permanently. I've changed mine to fox shocks, which are way more adjustable than the stock KYB shocks, and probably made it ride more like an Axys in the process.

Tough to really get comfortable on a sled on the first day out.

 

[matchrocket]

Bottom line is, they are very different, and suspension setup is critical. The Axys naturally wants to hold a line. Gen4 wants to wobble. Gen4 feels like an easier sled to turn, but it's harder to keep on edge than the Axys. The Axys front end feels like it floats a little more, and Gen4 is naturally more "in" the snow. Axys tracks better across old tracks, Gen4 is more disrupted. These are common observations, as you noted.

I ride my buddy's Pro 850 occasionally and it's so different compared to the Gen4 850T. Just a different style sled and takes different input to ride. Surely he would change settings on mine, and I would change things on his if we swapped permanently. I've changed mine to fox shocks, which are way more adjustable than the stock KYB shocks, and probably made it ride more like an Axys in the process.

Tough to really get comfortable on a sled on the first day out.

Great feedback, thanks ?

 

[06xRick]

If he had kmotion lock out he must have kmod skid right? Kmod skid can be set up so it doesn't transfer at all.

 

[Sheetmetalfab]

Polaris AXYS rider for a number of years. Per subject, rode a Summit Expert 165 Turbo this weekend. The experience left me scratching my head and I have some honest questions. This is not a brand war post. I have some very genuine questions about this platform.

Sled setup was 100% stock, except for Kmotion motion lockout, and the limiting strap was full out.

Weight or Perceived Weight:

The front end of this sled felt HEAVY when riding. Significantly more so than any Acennder or AXYS I've ever been on. I also found that moving back on the boards will not unload the front end, or does so very little. This is a huge change from what I am accustomed to. This made it a chore to get on the edge on a steep sidehill, and I was completely unable to do turn-ups in steep terrain. From a stop, planting your foot on the back of the board and blipping the throttle would not initiate a hard-on-edge like the AXYS or acceder platforms. Body English on flat ground to start a carve took WAY MORE effort on the bars than I am used to as well. I need almost zero input on the bars to start a turn / lean my axys with a 36" front end. Where here, I had to use the bars to get it over and help hold it. Body weight would just " roll" the sled but not initiate an edge. Again, it feels like the front end is extremely heavy.

Placing my feet as far forward as I could just make things MUCH morse difficult, as the inside ski would just burry its self and you were fighting the sled and the terrain at that point. This was a pointer given to me to help initiate turns.

Skis and Harsh Feedback:

The snow conditions were not great, but very decent. We had about a foot of soft with a crust under. When trying to carve or hold an edge, the sled really liked to bounce the nose up and down, and the skies would dart left/right a lot causing a lot of effort from me to keep it moving where I wanted. It took a lot of energy to keep it on track and fight the tendency to dive in turns.

Running across tracks was very punishing as well. The skis would dart around when going over them and you had to really fight it.

Power / Smoothness:

Wow... I'm impressed. Extremely linear power delivery, great bottom end, smooth build-up, and @ 8000ft this makes my 800 with a pipe/can feel like a pig. I really like how the turbo delivers power in this setup. Very smooth, predictable and still is a stump puller on the bottom end. I could get used to that in a hurry.

Track / traction etc.

Hard to say much about the track, was go anywhere snow, but it hooks up well and offered great traction in some steeper climbs. Honestly felt like it got on the snow better than my axys in the deeper spots I found in the trees.

Questions:

These sleds can't be this hard to ride, or they would not be selling. I've heard that you can't just "switch" between Doo and Poo, but the way it felt/rode seems extreme to me. Was I fighting a huge learning curve issue or was this sled just setup really poorly. I can't overstress that the front end felt like 100lbs more than my axys, AT LEAST. Limiting strap adjustment was full out, verified that.

The skis are really skinny, do people swap them out to get better flotation? Is the bouncing / diving nose behavior normal? Can this be tuned out?

Upper body input requirements are also MUCH higher than I expected due to body English having no impact on the chassis. Same as the above questions... Something has to be wrong here.

What is considered a normal foot position *Front to back* on this sled? My axys I have my toes about 3 to 4 inches behind the toe loops in neutral riding, and about 12 inches back when cutting a steep sidehill to keep the front end light and easy to move around. Further back if I want to snap the front end around. What is considered normal for Doo's? I felt like my foot placement didn't really have any significant impact on chassis dynamics and that felt really odd to me. Again goes back to that front end feeling like it was 100lsb more than the AXYS or Ascender platforms.

Feedback welcome, thanks!

I’ve ridden 8 different Gen 4 sleds model years 17-20 and they all have the same handling you described. (154-165-175 tracks)

It’s part of the “rider forward” design.

Great for downhill carving.

 

[yeti99]

From my experience I think the suspension wasn't setup properly at all for you, too much sag in the front. 1st weekend on my 165 turbo I felt the same way, especially compared to my 2017 154 summit. I adjusted the front suspension and rear torsion springs which helped a ton. The sled should be pretty effortless to initiate turns and carving on mellow terrain.

Also in my opinion you're correct on the skinny skis, I find they're really punchy in anything but blower snow conditions. I put on SLP mowhawks and other friends use the Polaris Grippers, I think the surface area and more rigid ski stopper helps a lot.

As for foot position, I think that's subjective to every rider & setup. But @ 210 lbs with gear I'm about 1.5 ft back on the running boards when in a neutral position. I run CFR bars and a 3" CFR risers.

Hi,
I've been playing around with skis on my -18 165". I really like the Mohawks but the ski rubbers doesn't work as well as the Durapros I run on my stockers. What ski rubbers do you use with your Mohawks? And what ski saddle position? I feel Mohawks with Durapros would be a win-win in the fluffy stuff.

 

[galljr13]

Your original post reminds me of my first post after getting a 2019 Gen 4 165 after riding Cat for 10 years. They are completely different sleds. You can change a bunch of components to get it to handle less like a Ski Doo but in the end, its still a Ski Doo and feels like trying to stand up in a canoe. I have yet to be successful in making big gains with handling in respect to the areas you described. You eventually "get used to it" if that's your goal. My priorities now are reliability and a solid engine so that's why I stick with them.

I will say I don't often hear that new Ski Doo riders mention the front end feeling heavy. I thought it felt pretty light. Front skid shock may be too soft?

 

[matchrocket]

If he had kmotion lock out he must have kmod skid right? Kmod skid can be set up so it doesn't transfer at all.

Typo on my part, KMOD T-Motion Lock out. OEM Skid.

 

[Thielio20]

Hi,
I've been playing around with skis on my -18 165". I really like the Mohawks but the ski rubbers doesn't work as well as the Durapros I run on my stockers. What ski rubbers do you use with your Mohawks? And what ski saddle position? I feel Mohawks with Durapros would be a win-win in the fluffy stuff.

I use the SLP rubbers and I believe the rear hole on the saddle but might try the forward position. I generally chew up 2-3 rubbers in a season. I just sent over an email to durapro to see if they've got anything compatible for a G4 spindle & SLP saddle, we'll see what they come back with.

SLP Replacement Ski Saddle Damper

Replacement ski saddle rubber dampners for Polaris models with SLP Ultra-Lite™, Tri-Keel™, Tri-Keel II™, SLT Ski™ (Straight Line Tracking), Powder Pro™ ski and Mohawk Ski™.

www.startinglineproducts.com

 

[matchrocket]

Sounds like the front track shock is blown out or something..

I didn't check or mess with his suspection settings. The sled is brand new and was "setup" by the dealer, he seems to trust them. But very well could of been softened up for his riding style (Alot? )

 

[matchrocket]

After owning all 3 brands, skidoo for me has been the most trouble free well rounded sled mile after mile, main reason why they sell so many in my opinion.

This is exactly why I am curious about them. Polaris feels too disposable. All brands have issues, but I am not in a position to buy new every two or three years. This is season 4, and I feel like I finally got most of the kinks worked out, and am looking at some very high bills this spring to keep it going strong. Questioning doing that or moving on to something else.

 

[matchrocket]

Thanks to all for the construtive feedback!

 

[duncan76]

I think good adjustable shocks is a big part of it. Anyone that runs aftermarket shocks fox zbroz raptors all seem to really like it. I got raptors all around with ace if nose dives I adjust compression done no more diving heavy front adjust compression on fts and so on and so forth. That's why I went with an sp save money over the expert and use the savings to get premium shocks. At the end of the year when I check a turbo I'll have the dealer swap shocks then sell my 18. Now hopefully they won't change the rear skid for 22 lol

 

[cacsrx1]

My stock tune T850 165 with Raptor shocks is definitely not heavy on the front end.

 

[turboless terry]

If you ride the other brands the doo feels front heavy. I've had them all. 5 gen 4, including the turbo. When i sold my 16 turboed axys, for a gen 4, because it was easier and more fun. That is why polaris got smart and came with the kaos. Skidoo was always heavier but rode lighter than any of them. Everything caught up and is lighter and easier. The alpha is hands down easier than any of them. The kaos is next. The doo has always had geometry issues. Whether it is the spindle bolting points or rider forward or combo of the two. The skis are always searching. Even though they steer twice as easy you are steering them 3 times as much to keep it going where you want. It is really magnified in less than stellar snow. They are a steering sled compared to an axis or a cat. They will even turn on asphalt where the others just go straight. They have a little more slide than the xm since they moved the motor back. Where doo really shines is their motor, ride and fit and finish. Doesn't get any better than the new 850t motor. The axys is good and the easiest to work on. The cat just sucks. The doo also is flawless in handle bar deep snow. The alpha sucks.
You can jump back and forth between cat and Polaris but doo will give you fits. I could do it easily but always rode everything. You will need a day or two to get used to it and have to ride it different than your axys.