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Has Polaris issued a recall for the oil cap?

B
Oct 26, 2003
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If all the talk of the cap causing engine failure is correct would Poo not send out new caps instead of continuing to replace engines?


One would certainly think so since all the engine warranties are definitely not going to help their bottom line..
 

mountainhorse

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No replacements that I know of...AND... I know there are a lot of supporters of the oil cap theory.

If a supplemental vent is done correctly, like those tank mods done with a check valve... so that it will not spill a drop of oil anywhere on the clutches when the sled is upside down or healed over... I don't see it causing any harm.

Northstar had a separate vent that uses a small check valve, with the normal polairs oil bottle outlet fitting and grommet and some hose that was added to the top of the tank. See pic at the bottom of this post.

If you are at all worried about your vent not working in your cap... then contact him and buy his kit... or put one together yourself...but make sure you use a very low pull-off pressure check valve if you want your install to work as you've planned.

This is my post from earlier.

This is my OPINION.

I respectfully differ in the "oil cap" theory.

The oil is not used at an fast rate...all it needs is an occasional "hiccup" of air entering the oil bottle to equalize pressures ambient/internal.
The cap is designed, on purpose, NOT to vent even at a slight angle.

If it opens for a split-second just once every 15min.. that's enough.

With help from gravity, and the fact that the pump has some suction... the oil bottle would have to be puckered inward to the point that you would hear a huge sucking noise when you removed the cap for the air to get sucked in past a hose connection or fitting.

The same cap, same oil pump has been used for years... The caps function has not changed.

Sure, it is possible to have a defective cap that never vents OR to get some dirt in there or if your sled is filthy and you never clean your clutches/belt/sled i guess... but I've seen plenty of horribly filthy 900's with the same cap (and same way it functions).

In fact, on my Dragon... I had a plugged vent on the cap from letting it sit in the shop, upside-down, for a couple of months over the summer when I forgot to put it back on (it got filthy)... when I did (wiped it out only) and ran the sled.. and added gas on the hill end of day, I got that serious "swish" of air as I opened the cap (the tank had "oil canned a bit"). A good cleaning and it gave me another 2 years of service.

If it were running like a garden hose... or even a fuel tank... a higher rate valve (like the unit on the fuel tank) would be needed.

If you regularly run the tank low on oil and, at the same time, have a super steep left side lean/side hill... or flip the sled and leave it running... air can easily enter the line as the suction fitting becomes the high spot, sitting in free air, in the oil-tank. <br><br>Keep the oil tank at the full mark at each fuel tank fill up.

And don't take my post the wrong way
... I acknowledge that it is possible to get an oil tank cap that does not function, just not very likely.

attachment.php















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oil tank vent.jpg
 
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diamonddave

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I have been venting Polaris oil caps since 2010 on 5 sleds personal sleds and countless sleds I've worked on. In all cases, I have noticed (and was reported) increased oil usage with no other adjustments or changes made.

One of my first tests anytime a Polaris comes in is a check to the oil cap. I discovered this when I had a re-occurring air bubble return in oil lines pre and post oil pump on my 09 dragon.

I have enough data and evidence for me to be convinced that this is not just a coincidence or a theory considering that a good number of sleds have had the exact same result.

Now....the big question is proving the cap not venting often enough directly causing engine failures??? All I know is I have cracked cylinder skirts on two sleds in less than 400 miles. We all know the theories on why this might have happened but both sleds had recurring air in the oil line. Coincidence?

If anybody doesn't believe this, then check your cap. You will see the vent closing at attitudes less than 20 degrees and will not open until almost zero degrees. I also don't like the little amount of volume of air when the vent does open.

There will be no recall due to the fact that they share the same opinion MH does.
 

Hawkster

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For those that don't know and want to do this with out the hassle of running the parts down at the auto shops and are fortunate enough to have a local snow salvage you can get the grommet ,fittings , hose and check valve off of the Doo oil tank .
 

mountainhorse

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Dave,

With the respect that I have for your opinion... and for other good techs... Next season, on my new sled... I will check my oil consumption over multiple tanks of oil with and without a supplemental vent.

For a supplemental vent... I like northstars method the best.

One thing I am open to learn about here, sincerly, is where would an air bubble come from in the line... even with the vent plugged completely... how does it get into the line?

IMO, the only way for this to happen is if the oil bottle outlet is exposed to the air in the bottle with the engine running... like when the sled is running and the bottle is near empty and the sled is held off leve...l or upside down. Then, the pump could sip oil.

I have bled oil lines for people that tried this themselves and removed air bubbles in the lines.

I've seen plenty of new sleds delivered from the dealers with air bubbles in the oil lines. The bleed process was obviously not done well... plus there is split plastic conduit over the line that obscures bubbles.

I've had bubbles re-appear in the oil lines of my sleds... usually after being upside down and running...

"Upside-down" seems to happen more than I'd like ARGH!








.
 

BILTIT

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Could it be possible the air bubble doesn't "get in the line" but is "created in the line" due to vacuum from the pump? I have no idea if any vacuum is created by the suction of the pump though. It is also possible this same principle applies with a blocked vent and a large enough temperature change which will create a vacuum in the line.

I too saw increased oil consumption with a vented tank.

I went from ~40:1 oil usage (pump turned up) to the point of leaving an oil streak in the snow out the exhaust every time i was climbing a hill (with a vented tank). I turned my oiler down 2 turns to get it close to what it was prior to venting the tank.
 

mountainhorse

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For those that don't know and want to do this with out the hassle of running the parts down at the auto shops and are fortunate enough to have a local snow salvage you can get the grommet ,fittings , hose and check valve off of the Doo oil tank .


Thanks.

Ski Doo parts

[30] Check Valve 275500398 $9.03

[27] Elbow Male Connector 414580700 $4.06

[28] Grommet 513032908 $6.39


attachment.php











Oil valve.jpg
 

mountainhorse

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BILTIT,

That would be a cavitation bubble... and the amount of vacuum and flow rate needed to make that happen does not seem possible in this system.
A cavitation bubble is not air...but a vacuum space... and once flow/vacuum stops... that bubble implodes.

Lets say that you are burning 40:1... and since there is no oil return line to the tank...On an average day of riding for most, you are burning an entire tank of gas, about 48 qts of gas.. at 40:1 you are burning 1.2 qts of oil (38.4 oz) .

Say that you are riding for 5 hours of engine operating time to burn that 48 qts of gas/38.4 oz of oil... that would put you at about .13oz (3.8cc) of oil per minute. I just don't see enough oil movement/vacuum to cause cavitation in oil hose on the suction side... that would easily collapse the hose and the tank.





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BILTIT

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It is hard to say what conditions are required to cause cavitation in this situation. Factor in some temp. swings and it might happen easier than you think.

Some in-depth testing would be required to prove/disprove the idea.

One could find out what amount of vacuum is required to collapse the hose/tank atleast.

I do have a vacuum pump at home, might do some testing.
 

mountainhorse

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Static cavitation in motor oil, from what I recall from engineering coursework, happens in excess of 25" HG.

But I'm interested in your findings.

Being able to create a cavitation bubble in an oil line would be an interesting situation.... and what shape the bottle would be at that vaccum level.













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G

geo

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Off hand open end discussion. I certainly don't have all the answers just some theories.

Where does that bubble come from?
One possible place for sure is inlet exposure to air while engine is running (upside down to the left). But then you have to think, How long does it take to empty that line (idling or revving)? How long to refill after upright? Is there any residual air remaining in the system even after fill tube is full? Why is there a bleeding procedure required during PDI in the first place?
I think Polaris designed a oil bottle (unique in the industry, 2 chamber design) that LIMITS the possibility of open end feed for a short period of time anyway. I like it and the effort to make it. Truly needed on a mountain sled.

Is there another place the bubble can come from (if you think weird like me lol)? Why are there check valves? Is there pressure any place in the bottom end of a 2stroke? What is the designed "pop" pressure on the oil side? Will air next to this valve make the same pressure as oil in specific sized tube?
If feed is restricted (say the tank is not vented at all) can a bubble come from the bottom up? Can a feed restriction end up creating bubbles in the distribution lines from cavitation? Can a check valve fail, siphon, or leak? Why does my sled smoke so much on start-up? What happens to the bubbles when the engine is in reverse?

Does it matter if there is a bubble in the feed line?
People who have bled oil systems during PDI have watched these bubbles move along. Sometimes one or two can be stubborn at the bends even with pump lever at max and rpm up. Very little movement after the flow has been divided after the pump. Do different feed lines flow more than others? Can that cause one or two or three bleed lines to be more difficult to purge, take longer?
If you never crack the bleed screw to fill the feed line, it takes much longer, so you always do, to get rid of a bubble in the feed line and not reintroduce it to the distribution lines. But,,, that bubble in the feed line disappears quickly when allowed to flow.
Does that mean a bubble in the feed line creates a restriction to flow? Shouldn't at WFO. Why does it stay there for some? Or does it go and come back for the same reasons as it appeared the first time?

One OEM vents the tank specifically. Costs more so why. Was it research or just carry over of design?
2 use a simple oil cap that is specifically (gravity and a ball) designed to work properly in a horizontal position. It's worked for years but two have experienced more "mysterious" bottom end failures since using oil bottles with the caps mounted on an angle. Most people carve to the left more than the right lol.

The present oil pump system has been around for a long time. RPM and lever position dictated total flow. Used to be set richer than today so big puddles internally and excess was the norm. But,,, people still noticed straight ratio premix to be more reliable. It was because there is always a delay before the crankcase rebuilt it's "puddle" that is safe and required in two stroke.
Today they all leaned then out for the EPA but Doo uses the most at WFO. It uses an electric pump. Two strokes need oil. It's still splash lubrication.

I'd like to know how the electric pump works on the AXYS. Is it full bypass flow, metered to pass EPA area, then excess at WFO so it doesn't need to wait until the "puddle" grows in the crankcase?
I think the oil cap on the AXYS is mounted horizontally again too,
 
G

geo

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MH. Your math on the oil flow is based on steady state not actual flow at any given point of time. I believe oil demand can be much greater in short time pictures.

It's those short time pictures when oil is needed the most. It's those short time pictures when lack of oil creates the most damage.
If we set our throttles to run 5.2 oz of fuel per min. we would all get 10,000miles out of our motors lol.
 

mountainhorse

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It's interesting that ski doo uses a Kelch Vented cap on the XM's as well... with no supplemental vent-check-valve.

In 2013 on the XM... Ski Doo had a barb for the vent hose... but put a cap on the vent line barb on the tank and deleted the vent-check-valve.

In 2014, the tanks do not even have the barb on them.

Can a supplemental vent hurt... apparently not.
Is it a cheap mod... seems so.

If you are worried about this or just want to take extra precautions....vent your tank with a check valve.










.
 

diamonddave

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Dave,

With the respect that I have for your opinion... and for other good techs... Next season, on my new sled... I will check my oil consumption over multiple tanks of oil with and without a supplemental vent.

For a supplemental vent... I like northstars method the best.

One thing I am open to learn about here, sincerly, is where would an air bubble come from in the line... even with the vent plugged completely... how does it get into the line?

IMO, the only way for this to happen is if the oil bottle outlet is exposed to the air in the bottle with the engine running... like when the sled is running and the bottle is near empty and the sled is held off leve...l or upside down. Then, the pump could sip oil.










.






Thanks Eric. I know you and I have discussed this before. And you know I respect your expertise and knowledge with Polaris snowmobiles.

The "air bubble" I believe comes from the vent NOT venting and the actual oil level going down in the line. Almost a vapor lock.

I think I have pics somewhere when my Dragon would continue have recurring air bubbles between oil tank AND oil pump. (found them)

Venting the cap fixed this.




http://www.snowest.com/forum/showthread.php?t=216099
 
O

Oregonsledder

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Jan 27, 2009
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Off hand open end discussion. I certainly don't have all the answers just some theories.

Where does that bubble come from?
One possible place for sure is inlet exposure to air while engine is running (upside down to the left). But then you have to think, How long does it take to empty that line (idling or revving)? How long to refill after upright? Is there any residual air remaining in the system even after fill tube is full? Why is there a bleeding procedure required during PDI in the first place?
I think Polaris designed a oil bottle (unique in the industry, 2 chamber design) that LIMITS the possibility of open end feed for a short period of time anyway. I like it and the effort to make it. Truly needed on a mountain sled.

Is there another place the bubble can come from (if you think weird like me lol)? Why are there check valves? Is there pressure any place in the bottom end of a 2stroke? What is the designed "pop" pressure on the oil side? Will air next to this valve make the same pressure as oil in specific sized tube?
If feed is restricted (say the tank is not vented at all) can a bubble come from the bottom up? Can a feed restriction end up creating bubbles in the distribution lines from cavitation? Can a check valve fail, siphon, or leak? Why does my sled smoke so much on start-up? What happens to the bubbles when the engine is in reverse?

Does it matter if there is a bubble in the feed line?
People who have bled oil systems during PDI have watched these bubbles move along. Sometimes one or two can be stubborn at the bends even with pump lever at max and rpm up. Very little movement after the flow has been divided after the pump. Do different feed lines flow more than others? Can that cause one or two or three bleed lines to be more difficult to purge, take longer?
If you never crack the bleed screw to fill the feed line, it takes much longer, so you always do, to get rid of a bubble in the feed line and not reintroduce it to the distribution lines. But,,, that bubble in the feed line disappears quickly when allowed to flow.
Does that mean a bubble in the feed line creates a restriction to flow? Shouldn't at WFO. Why does it stay there for some? Or does it go and come back for the same reasons as it appeared the first time?

One OEM vents the tank specifically. Costs more so why. Was it research or just carry over of design?
2 use a simple oil cap that is specifically (gravity and a ball) designed to work properly in a horizontal position. It's worked for years but two have experienced more "mysterious" bottom end failures since using oil bottles with the caps mounted on an angle. Most people carve to the left more than the right lol.

The present oil pump system has been around for a long time. RPM and lever position dictated total flow. Used to be set richer than today so big puddles internally and excess was the norm. But,,, people still noticed straight ratio premix to be more reliable. It was because there is always a delay before the crankcase rebuilt it's "puddle" that is safe and required in two stroke.
Today they all leaned then out for the EPA but Doo uses the most at WFO. It uses an electric pump. Two strokes need oil. It's still splash lubrication.

I'd like to know how the electric pump works on the AXYS. Is it full bypass flow, metered to pass EPA area, then excess at WFO so it doesn't need to wait until the "puddle" grows in the crankcase?
I think the oil cap on the AXYS is mounted horizontally again too,

I would rather there not be a bubble in an oil line, but it really doesn't mean the oil isn't still flowing. Have you ever siphoned gas with a clear hose and you sometimes have a big air bubble some where in the line, but gas keeps coming out the end. Same principle I suspect.
 

diamonddave

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I would rather there not be a bubble in an oil line, but it really doesn't mean the oil isn't still flowing. Have you ever siphoned gas with a clear hose and you sometimes have a big air bubble some where in the line, but gas keeps coming out the end. Same principle I suspect.





There's no doubt we have all seen this but a lack of volume of oil in an 800 CFI is alot more serious than siphoning gas.

It's obvious the oil is still flowing but the question is how much less flows with the air bubble?? This can be proven with a properly vented oil cap.
 

Ex-Flit

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oil cap not venting

I was in the snowies a few weeks ago and one morning when getting the sleds ready I actually heard a suction sound when I opened my oil cap just like when you open a gas can that is pressurized I only noticed it once but it was very noticeable. I will be adding some venting after hearing that. I am wondering if you fill your oil too full if it is getting into the vent and causing the cap not to work correctly. I have an auxiliary fuel tank in my pickup that does the same thing if I over fill the tank with diesel fuel the vent plugs up from the fuel sloshing around in the tank as soon as i blow out the vent it works fine again.
 

Merlin

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After our discussion on this topic awhile back I performed Geo's "cap mod" & drilled three(3) .020" holes with a torch tip cleaner underneath the cap. Thanks Geo!
I don't bring any concrete numbers to the table this time as I've only been out riding with my son a couple of times since the "cap mod" & didn't even bother to keep track of the oil consumption but based on my E.Y.E. gauge, the tank is dropping noticeably quicker than before. :face-icon-small-win

You have to remember that my oiler is turned up all the way(one thread short of being flush with the lock nut) & when I calculated my oil consumption last year(over 400 miles) I was only at 50:1. So when I hear reports of people getting up to & over 40:1 I have to admit that I put a fair bit of stock in the possibility of the factory vent cap not doing it's job(at least on my machine).

I'll report back once I've put a few miles on next season but I've got a pretty good hunch it's going to be to confirm the success of the "cap mod".
 
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