need help...bye bye diamond drive...

stocksucks!! · Mar 11, 2011

ok not riding any other clutch in my life.. since i have only been riding since 2007.. my question to you guys and girls is.. what is the advantages to this new chain case type clutching? can i get another 200 rpm with a quick turn of the wrench? i also read on here that dd drive could'nt put all the power to the snow. what do they mean by this? what kind of power can we excpect from the new 800ho clutching.. will it feel like puting a pipe on it or something like that.. thanks and CHEERS

1080paul · Mar 11, 2011

Back in 2002 I remember reading an article in SnoWest about the Diamond drive when it was first developed. BDX put it in a 2001 440 SnoPro and if I remember right they ran two SP's side by side and the sled with the DD was 6 to 10 sled lengths ahead so everybody wanted one but Cat bought the rights to it before it ever hit the market. Now all of the sudden a chain case is better???? I don't get it.

From everything I've read over the years...the DD works great...it's the clutches that hold the sled back.

ndC7M8 · Mar 11, 2011

the diamond drives were twice as expensive, if not more than that, as a chaincase setup, more complex and required more precise service. Clutching is different on DD machines because of the gearcase principle used (you spin a gear, that spins a set of planetary gears, that spin an output gear that spins your drive shaft.) There are just more variables to account for with the gearcase. There were probably more gear selections with a DD, but they're expensive units to modify, not to mention considerably more work to make changes to.

A chaincase is just a more direct way of transfering power. Its like electricity, the more points of resistance to power, the more power you will lose before it gets to where you want it. So a top gear connected to a bottom gear via chain SHOULD transfer power a little more efficiently to your driveshaft. Its also a heck of a lot easier to pop a case cover off and change out gears than it is to remove the diamond drive. Its simpler, quicker, and cheaper. Chains are prone to breaking under heavy load or when on-the-throttle landings occur, but the diamond drive was certainly not indestructable by any means either......

I believe going back to the chaincase will help boost the aftermarket clutching world. Its much easier to work with and the principles are already well known throughout the entire snowmobiling community, so that might draw some old cat customers back who maybe strayed away from Diamond Drive equipped sleds because they were skeptical about working on a gearcase in a snowmobile.....

sorry for the long post, by the way

stocksucks!! · Mar 11, 2011

Thank you guys for the clarification.. So how about adding or subtracting rpm is this easy to do on the new set up..I like the way skidoo has it setup turn some dials and bam 200 rpm.. Any thoughts

knifedge · Mar 11, 2011

Thank God that you do not have TRA clutching. I honestly believe that the TRA clutches have blown up more belts than any other modern setup(operated at high altitude and/or deep snow conditions). This is from personnal observation over the years dating back to the mid 1990's. Dating back this far to present, I would say Polaris clutches have been the most reliable and easy to tune. Even present day Cat primary clutches are blowing out spiders. I had this issue on my 1991 Cat EXT Special(really enjoyed that sled). Solution---I bolted on a Polaris primary and never had a problem.

diggerdown · Mar 11, 2011

I hope they have made some changes to the primary and start making replacement parts for the things that do wear. I wonder what they did with the secondary. The old torsion spring clutch was easy to tune and cheap to tune, pretty trouble free. When they went to the gear box they changed the secondary and made it harder to tune and more expensive, it also did not seem to shift as good as the torsional spring set-up.

Destroyer · Mar 11, 2011

I don't know man. I dig the doo clutches. I found them easier to tune.

madness · Mar 11, 2011

Destroyer said:
I don't know man. I dig the doo clutches. I found them easier to tune.

great 4 the flat lands.clickers suck in the mt u are adjusting to not over rev and they are super $$$.i feel bad everytime i open one up and have to tell the customer its going to be $1000 in parts.i hope they have made a better cat clutch aswell.

KMMAC · Mar 11, 2011

To add to the gear case/chain case argument,, again what are the racers using? NOT trying to start something but, if the gear drive would have been truly worth it cat would have continued too use it. I saw too many gear cases here in the m site to keep me from buying one. Now the after market DD is suppose to be a lot tougher just sayin..

1080paul · Mar 11, 2011

I don't read about 05' and 06' M's having a lot of DD problems because those sleds have the original DD. We all wanted reverse so Cat came up with that mechanical reverse DD in 07 and 08 and those are the cases that seem to be coming apart.

I prefer the DD as far as changing gears vs. the chain case. I like to pull the case out and do it on the work bench. When I buy a gear set I buy the bearings so the gears are all set to go when I change them. I think the BDX DD is a very simple design and easy to work on.

I wonder how much work it's going to be to change a track on the new Cats? It looks like you have to pull a lot of stuff apart?

spoon · Mar 11, 2011

Probably biggest reason for eliminating DD is Reverse. Remember how bad the reverse DDs were. Can't do engine reverse with a 4 stroke and 80% of the new Cats are 4 stroke.

Chubby · Mar 12, 2011

DD need to use a smaller secondary clutch that cant grab the belt like a bigger clutch with more contact. Also there was some scrub with the planetary gears loss of power. I myself have seen more smoked belts on the new diamond drive than all others.

ccpowder · Mar 12, 2011

Just tell me they are smart enough to use Hyvo chain and gears!!!

Johnmaster · Mar 12, 2011

I am really going to miss 45 minute oil-free track swaps. We live in the flatlands and have tracks that work better for here so we swap tracks on each machine twice per year, before and after we head to the hills. Spilling a chaincase out twice per year is going to get old.
I will be disappointed if they have anything but an o-ring seal on the case, gaskets and p-tex on my polaris was a leaky waste of time whenever I had to do it.

I like the automatic tensioner, I love the engine/jackshaft link, I hope they figured it out so the track can be swapped without having to remove the chaincase, I always hated that on sleds that needed it.

allied1 · Mar 12, 2011

ccpowder said:
Just tell me they are smart enough to use Hyvo chain and gears!!!

They used a $1.09 China bearing in the DD. You make the call.

stocksucks!! · Mar 12, 2011

thanks for all in info on the advantages and disadvantages..
all that said.. how about getting more rpm is it easy?if so how do we do it?

christian · Mar 12, 2011

allied1 said:
They used a $1.09 China bearing in the DD. You make the call.

lol making money not friends

1080paul · Mar 12, 2011

stocksucks!! said:
thanks for all in info on the advantages and disadvantages..
all that said.. how about getting more rpm is it easy?if so how do we do it?

The driven on the new sleds looks very similar to the current clutch, just bigger. I know you want a clicker system but changing RPM should be done with the primary clutch.

I'd suggest buying a set of adjustable weights.

bee1971 · Mar 13, 2011

Chubby said:
DD need to use a smaller secondary clutch that cant grab the belt like a bigger clutch with more contact. Also there was some scrub with the planetary gears loss of power. I myself have seen more smoked belts on the new diamond drive than all others.

Main issue that we all have seen , flatlanders , mountain , is alignment issues with the DD Secondary - You could not free float the DD Secondary because of its fixed position in relation of course to the splined shaft in the DD Gearcase (That splined shaft/bearings just couldnt take the abuse of a free floating secondary clutch) - Then you add these high torque motors and rock hard kevlar belts to the picture and in alot of cases , well belts are very expensive , belt heat = less power to the track ALIGNMENT was everything with the DD Gearcase !!!

I have not seen the new cats in person , so i dont know if the secondary will bee able to float to some degree on the jackshaft like the roller secondary of old ???

Also i have seen on Cats Website this new Torque Link Brace - Supposed to keep the engine in perfect alignment with the jackshaft , hence better belt life , better alignment = more power to the track

I guess the next question would bee , Belt Construction/Material ???

FBM · Mar 13, 2011

By looking at the pics on the cat web site , the DD was not used b/c the secondary was moved forward and up. the mass centalization thing. Cat has never been too concerned with aftermarket tunability. Thoughts?

need help...bye bye diamond drive...

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