advanced clutch thoughts

spring snow hero · Feb 4, 2009

it is possible to achieve the same rpm with a light spring rate and light weights, and heavy rate/weights. what is the benefits to either? some are saying spin the lightest weights you can get away with, others, say throw weight at it till it won't pull it.

I am setup right now with light (for my horsepower) weights and spring and I just went up a bunch in helix angle beacuse the upshift was boring and waaay safe. by throwing more helix at it am I going to need to toss more weight and spring at it too, or just tune what I have. trying to milk every last bit out of her so I can still ride with the deeper pockets around my parts.

thanks for any ideas.

winter brew · Feb 4, 2009

Light setups are a little snappier, in some cases more "fun" to ride, heavier setups tend to be more consistant and will hold more track speed on a climb.
Depends on the sled, type of riding. Both can work very good but they both have their place. Light for the roads and short tracks, heavy for the hills and mountain sleds....(generally).

spring snow hero · Feb 4, 2009

I am thinking a bit more weight and a bit more spring, but a lot more of my mass in the middle, removed from the tips.

RockyMtn.Kris · Feb 5, 2009

winter brew said:
Light setups are a little snappier, in some cases more "fun" to ride, heavier setups tend to be more consistant and will hold more track speed on a climb. Depends on the sled, type of riding. Both can work very good but they both have their place. Light for the roads and short tracks, heavy for the hills and mountain sleds....(generally).

Well said WB as always. This is an age old question for sure. I experimented with this on my Escape. There where days I could have traded back and forth. Slp said heavy weight less helix, Struthers said exactly the opposite. I found after installing a jackshaft sensor my clutching was more consistent with the shallower setup.

Nowdays I try to find balance and efficiency. Gearing first, then a modestly aggressive helix, and as much weight as I can get away with. I end up with a slight over-rev on the road but super consistent over a wide range on the hill. Always a trade off no matter what we do:beer;

Wheel House Motorsports · Feb 6, 2009

spring snow hero said:
I am thinking a bit more weight and a bit more spring, but a lot more of my mass in the middle, removed from the tips.

no, you want more weight out on the ends.... because say 20 grams located in the middle is only as good as 10 grams on the ends, so therefore it takes more overall mass to achieve the same force.

it seems like a good idea at first, but then, not so much. think of it as a lever.... the farther out you push down, the harder it pushes with the same weight... its all about the mechanical advantage and using it to YOUR advantage.

as far as light/light vs. heavy/heavy

i think a middle option, slitghtly more on the heavy side to help resist to sudden change in loads. a 162 going from the air to the ground in a climb generates so much traction that the load on the motor changes way to much for a really light setup to deal with appropriately. just dont go crazy with weight.

spring snow hero · Feb 6, 2009

I don't want to go too heavy on my tips, as I do 70% boondocking and 30% wot pulls. I don't want to kill my quick hit by over massing it.

Vertical_Escape · Feb 6, 2009

I'm glad this thread was started, I'm re-clutching Escape right now, and the info is most useful.

Throttle Junkie · Feb 6, 2009

Well I like light primary (just enough to make it shift) medium spring, Bigger helix with stiffer secondary spring to stop belt slippage. go's against what most people say but it has always worked for me.

LIke my XP, alot of guys are running 16+ grams of pin weight....I am running 13.3 grams right now and it still shifts hard and has "the rip" that I like.

Heavy primary weight give you a slow reving lazy feeling. I like my stuff to RIP, if I breath on the throttle I want it to jump out from under me. My XP is there now and it's twice as fun to ride.

Winter Brew what is your theory with Heavy weights being more consistent. Heavy weights in my experience make the sled more alltitude sensative and condition sensative. Just curious.

In the end one setup is not going to shine over the other. One may do a little better but it's not going to be night and day. It really comes down to your riding style and how you want the sled to respond. Some people hate sled that snap and rev quick but for me that's what I like. When I hit the throttle I want my stuff to jump.

mopar1rules · Feb 7, 2009

Throttle Junkie said:
Well I like light primary (just enough to make it shift) medium spring, Bigger helix with stiffer secondary spring to stop belt slippage. go's against what most people say but it has always worked for me.

LIke my XP, alot of guys are running 16+ grams of pin weight....I am running 13.3 grams right now and it still shifts hard and has "the rip" that I like.

Heavy primary weight give you a slow reving lazy feeling. I like my stuff to RIP, if I breath on the throttle I want it to jump out from under me. My XP is there now and it's twice as fun to ride.

Winter Brew what is your theory with Heavy weights being more consistent. Heavy weights in my experience make the sled more alltitude sensative and condition sensative. Just curious.

In the end one setup is not going to shine over the other. One may do a little better but it's not going to be night and day. It really comes down to your riding style and how you want the sled to respond. Some people hate sled that snap and rev quick but for me that's what I like. When I hit the throttle I want my stuff to jump.

sounds very similar to how my flatlander rev is setup. i have like 18g in the primary, w/a 200-320 epi primary spring, and a hyperlite secondary, running a 52/44 helix and cat yellow spring. right now it revs up lightening fast and backshifts awesome. i bought a 54/46 helix to try out, cause i can tell it has the potential to be upshifting harder than what it currently is. first the clutch had a cpc blue/white spring, which was way too stiff for me. it was holding back the shift way too much. i still think that maybe this cat yellow spring is too stiff yet too. maybe i could try the goodwin black spring that i have....51/82 rate.

Throttle Junkie · Feb 7, 2009

mopar1rules said:
sounds very similar to how my flatlander rev is setup. i have like 18g in the primary, w/a 200-320 epi primary spring, and a hyperlite secondary, running a 52/44 helix and cat yellow spring. right now it revs up lightening fast and backshifts awesome. i bought a 54/46 helix to try out, cause i can tell it has the potential to be upshifting harder than what it currently is. first the clutch had a cpc blue/white spring, which was way too stiff for me. it was holding back the shift way too much. i still think that maybe this cat yellow spring is too stiff yet too. maybe i could try the goodwin black spring that i have....51/82 rate.

You talking cat roller?? Yellow is way to soft in the mountains....not sure about flats..but I run the sno pro green in the Cat roller secondary middle hole. It's the stiffest spring you can guy from cat. Red/White is the first step above the yellow.

mattymac · Feb 7, 2009

I have always like heavier weight setups, more consistant, and always pulls harder! Lighter will get you the backshift but it always feels flat to me! Load it up and make up pull!

mopar1rules · Feb 7, 2009

Throttle Junkie said:
You talking cat roller?? Yellow is way to soft in the mountains....not sure about flats..but I run the sno pro green in the Cat roller secondary middle hole. It's the stiffest spring you can guy from cat. Red/White is the first step above the yellow.

no, i'm not talking cat roller, i'm talking hyperlite roller, which i guess is basically like a cat roller. red/white cat spring i used to run on my ported/piped viper, w/hi-tech er roller secondary, but found that the top end was down, cause the spring is too stiff towards full shift. i switched to the cat yellow spring, and picked up 4-6mph on top end.

Ron · Feb 7, 2009

spring snow hero said:
I am thinking a bit more weight and a bit more spring, but a lot more of my mass in the middle, removed from the tips.

That's exactly what I've done for the Polaris 800 CFI, not a lot more mass though. The trick is getting the mass in the right place and the right amount.
IMO the lighter weight/spring is a feel good clutch, sings along, but the heavier setup gets the job done better and is more consistant. Typically lighter weights work in some snow conditions but don't perform in others.

Throttle Junkie · Feb 7, 2009

mopar1rules said:
no, i'm not talking cat roller, i'm talking hyperlite roller, which i guess is basically like a cat roller. red/white cat spring i used to run on my ported/piped viper, w/hi-tech er roller secondary, but found that the top end was down, cause the spring is too stiff towards full shift. i switched to the cat yellow spring, and picked up 4-6mph on top end.

Hmmmm what helix, I had to try the yellow once in my mod triple becuase everyone was talking about it...it made it about 5 miles and I changed it on the trail...I ran a 56/48 in it. running the same setup on my wifes 700 with twin pipes...pulls all the way through.

Throttle Junkie · Feb 7, 2009

mattymac said:
I have always like heavier weight setups, more consistant, and always pulls harder! Lighter will get you the backshift but it always feels flat to me! Load it up and make up pull!

I disagee....weight don't make it pull....up shift makes it pull. I had 17 grams of pin weight in my XP last year and it pulls WAAAY harder this year with just over 13 grams of pin weight. More top end also. It's all about up shift. The big battle with an agressive upshift is getting it to backshift fast enough....but lighter weight in the primary and stiffer secondary spring helps that...

iluv2fly · Feb 7, 2009

I have experimented a lot this year with my 09 M8 cat with a 162 and slp pipe. I have ran 68G weights with medium spring 140/310 and 70G weights with heavy spring 150/330 and the heavy/heavy setup works much better on it. The heavier weights pull a lot harder and I get better trackspeed. I can put the 68 weights in and get better rpm but the pull is gone it just seems like it's stuck in low gear. The cat motor likes to be loaded in my opinion. You also have to remember that engines make a big difference to. The cat engine likes to be loaded a lot more than say the polaris or skidoo.

mattymac · Feb 8, 2009

Throttle Junkie said:
I disagee....weight don't make it pull....up shift makes it pull. I had 17 grams of pin weight in my XP last year and it pulls WAAAY harder this year with just over 13 grams of pin weight. More top end also. It's all about up shift. The big battle with an agressive upshift is getting it to backshift fast enough....but lighter weight in the primary and stiffer secondary spring helps that...

Dont know much about the TRA clutches but sounds like you may have been way overclutched to begin with!

Seriously though, good for you! I went from 74's to 80's in my turbo and changed nothing else, guess what??? Night and day diffrence in the way it pulled for the better!

Heavier weights do increase upshift (I know profiles come into play also in this, as do what motor your trying to clutch!) but also add clamping force, inertia, and load the engine harder (givin your in your correct operating RPM obviously) which makes the motor make peak torque. (motors dont make alot of torque reving up with the track off the ground or say in neutral!

bjenkins · Feb 8, 2009

You must have balance between primary and secondary. A number different clutching setups will work as long as you have balance. In general light primary will rev fast but slow go, heavy primary slower rev but pulls hard and holds rpm's better. In my experience heavy primary needs less backshift maintain RPM but needs stiffer secondary to prevent belt slippage and lighter primary needs more aggressive helix to maintain RPM's.

spring snow hero · Feb 8, 2009

it is a fun subject. I have spoke to some guys who are very respected and they are like politcis, someswing way one way, some the other....some right in the middle.

I am currently in the pretty light primary, and reasonably agressive helix setup. I am gonna see what I can do by throwing weight and spring at it.

there are a lot of people who defend any added belt pinch beyond what it takes to keep it from slipping is just extra friction. I can understand that. think as a mountain rider, I need all the hp I can get as quick as I can, I can sacrifice a bit of top speed, infact f my belt never sees the top of my sheaves I could give a rip, I want it to climb like a goat, backshift like that is its job, and not chew up belts......I am close, but always looking for more.

ron....TJ....matty.....others, I know you guys have stuff that works. I appreciate you taking the time to share it. I think if we get enough good disscussion on this topic it can be one of those threads tha we use for refernce like in the old days:beer;

Throttle Junkie · Feb 8, 2009

mattymac said:
Dont know much about the TRA clutches but sounds like you may have been way overclutched to begin with!

Seriously though, good for you! I went from 74's to 80's in my turbo and changed nothing else, guess what??? Night and day diffrence in the way it pulled for the better!

Heavier weights do increase upshift (I know profiles come into play also in this, as do what motor your trying to clutch!) but also add clamping force, inertia, and load the engine harder (givin your in your correct operating RPM obviously) which makes the motor make peak torque. (motors dont make alot of torque reving up with the track off the ground or say in neutral!

Well the ski-doos are kind of a different animal...you can change the primary profile also...what may guys do is have a steeper ramp (slower upshift) and then the load the crap out of the primary to make it shift...to me that just seems like you are p*ssing in the wind. Why run a steep ramp that has little upshift and try to oversome it with weight...I run shallow ramps so not much weight is needed for upshift, then a stiffer secondary spring to clamp the belt better.

Don;t like a stiff end rate on the primary spring either..again you are just slowing shift and then have to overcome it with weight, the more weight you have to run the more HP you rob...simular to a easy flywheel in a small block chevy. All my poos I run around 140/310 spring. my 800 triple has a 150/290 The stock poos used to some with that 120/340 black/green, I could not get rid of that thing fast enough...

Can someone explain how more weight makes it more consistent?? Seems to me heavy weight primary setup are more alltitude sensative..I can't see the theory there.

I do know one thing after tunning on Poo's and Cat's for years. Buy a ski-doo and times the confussion x3 and that's what you have. They work good but what a mother to get setup....Glad I had a Ski-Doo genious to help me out...I could tell what it was not doing but just needed help on getting it to do it.....

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