Front Fork Compression, Rebound Setup

[intheheartofit]

Tried to do a search, but didn't find much.

I have a 2021 KTM 500 XCF with the MXT Lucky front springs system.

There's still something with the 2020 RIOT LE and this bike that just doesn't have the right feel compared to when I ride my neighbour's KTM 450 with a 2017 Camso. It's like I can't get enough power and it lags or get up into the next gear as need like a half gear. I might need to change gear ratios? But changing the suspension seems easiest first.

I have on the rear shock that upgraded spring 10" 105lb with the quick clicker set to least firm and 3/4 inch preload. Front skid shock is set to medium. factory preload. Anything I should adjust here? I honestly don't know enough about how these all interact.

Now to my main question though is front forks. I have the airpro and was running 15PSI then went to 19PSI and bike was a bit less soft and "higher" feeling. Thoughts on how much air to run? I see 15 mentioned.

What about compression and rebound? I have a setting for each on both shocks with that Lucky setup. Do I want as much compression as possible? What about rebound?

Forks in the triple clamps? I have mine maybe 1/8-3/16" below the top

Much thanks as I try to tweak this setup to get it over that lagging feeling. Mainly ride small hills, fields, rail bed sides, logging roads.

 

[eric82930]

Not sure where you ride but rail bed sides makes me think somewhere low elevation with more dense snow? Only thing I can think is the laggy feeling is the really aggressive ts ski vs camso. How deep is the trench when you don't spin? The camso is wider and may float the bike up on top better? Also check your track tension? Ts sometimes are real tight from the factory.

As for set up. The riot typically doesn't need as much air or spring in the front so don't assume you will be the same as others. Pick up the rear and make sure the front paddles hit the floor ahead of the rear then adjust strut or fork height.
If you are in flatter terrain I would shorten the strut more than most to favor wheelie mode. Don't worry about fork compression unless you bottom a lot -stiffen or it feels hard on your wrists in frozen hard trail-soften.

 

[jarred kale]

Tried to do a search, but didn't find much.

I have a 2021 KTM 500 XCF with the MXT Lucky front springs system.

There's still something with the 2020 RIOT LE and this bike that just doesn't have the right feel compared to when I ride my neighbour's KTM 450 with a 2017 Tutuapp 9Apps Showbox Camso. It's like I can't get enough power and it lags or get up into the next gear as need like a half gear. I might need to change gear ratios? But changing the suspension seems easiest first.

I have on the rear shock that upgraded spring 10" 105lb with the quick clicker set to least firm and 3/4 inch preload. Front skid shock is set to medium. factory preload. Anything I should adjust here? I honestly don't know enough about how these all interact.

Now to my main question though is front forks. I have the airpro and was running 15PSI then went to 19PSI and bike was a bit less soft and "higher" feeling. Thoughts on how much air to run? I see 15 mentioned.

What about compression and rebound? I have a setting for each on both shocks with that Lucky setup. Do I want as much compression as possible? What about rebound?

Forks in the triple clamps? I have mine maybe 1/8-3/16" below the top

Much thanks as I try to tweak this setup to get it over that lagging feeling. Mainly ride small hills, fields, rail bed sides, logging roads.

you might find something on ebay

 

[intheheartofit]

Not sure where you ride but rail bed sides makes me think somewhere low elevation with more dense snow? Only thing I can think is the laggy feeling is the really aggressive ts ski vs camso. How deep is the trench when you don't spin? The camso is wider and may float the bike up on top better? Also check your track tension? Ts sometimes are real tight from the factory.

As for set up. The riot typically doesn't need as much air or spring in the front so don't assume you will be the same as others. Pick up the rear and make sure the front paddles hit the floor ahead of the rear then adjust strut or fork height.
If you are in flatter terrain I would shorten the strut more than most to favor wheelie mode. Don't worry about fork compression unless you bottom a lot -stiffen or it feels hard on your wrists in frozen hard trail-soften.

Great, thanks, was out with it today. My neighbour changed his spring cam in his Camso and got the same issues as me so looks like it's the spring most likely causing the lag for him, said it felt like he was riding my bike with the new cam, he switched it back and was back to his old feel. Might be the way the RIOT geometry is, isn't great for the snow here.

I'm around 1000-1500 feet so can be anything here, today was super powdery on the edges and only a foot on the crust in the middle of a field. I trenched about a foot down regardless. Really ripped the plow banks today and got into 6th. That new rear spring is gold, but really don't know what to play with as changing the clickers don't find much difference in the field. I might change to a 12T sprocket this week and see if that helps with shifting.

Track tension is good a little looser than the specs as specs just didn't feel quite right.

It's tough this bike and kit in the right conditions flies, but then trying to get it on top of the snow to get speed it really just needs something a bit more.

 

[eric82930]

Well the camso is a strange oddball with the mono shock\spring setup it's hard to compare to any thing else. Was the cam to adjust the limit strap or adjust preload? Did you go up or down?

Don't waste time with the clickers and leave the lock out off until you get springs and struts dialed. The lock out should be used as a last resort hail Mary to climb some crazy hill you can't climb any other way.

The problem you mentioned about going a foot through the crust could literally just mean you don't have enough track surface area on the riot. People don't realize how much less float area the riot\aro have because they are an inch narrower. But it's a huge difference.

If you want to try a quick test to see if you can float on the crust then swap the springs on the riot front to back so it will be like an aro. You could probably do it out in the field. Wheelies will be gone and it will feel just like a camso.(yuck) but it should be the master of float as much as the smaller track will allow.

 

[intheheartofit]

Well the camso is a strange oddball with the mono shock\spring setup it's hard to compare to any thing else. Was the cam to adjust the limit strap or adjust preload? Did you go up or down?

Don't waste time with the clickers and leave the lock out off until you get springs and struts dialed. The lock out should be used as a last resort hail Mary to climb some crazy hill you can't climb any other way.

The problem you mentioned about going a foot through the crust could literally just mean you don't have enough track surface area on the riot. People don't realize how much less float area the riot\aro have because they are an inch narrower. But it's a huge difference.

If you want to try a quick test to see if you can float on the crust then swap the springs on the riot front to back so it will be like an aro. You could probably do it out in the field. Wheelies will be gone and it will feel just like a camso.(yuck) but it should be the master of float as much as the smaller track will allow.

Ok thanks,

I probably just don't have enough experience with shocks and springs to really know the difference and what I'm going for with all the adjustments yet. Hopefully I'm at peak learning curve though!

The Camso he just took off the 2020 cam and put a makeshift holder on to keep the spring in place.

Should I have the clickers et to the softest then while trialing preload, etc? Also great idea on switching shocks sounds interesting with the clickers though could I not mimic this with having the back locked out and the front soft?

One other thing can you explain what one is looking for for "weight transfer" what exactly is this doing/trying to achieve? Tried searching the forums but didn't find much.

The crust was really minimal, just enough when going to not trench down and get a bit more speed, could ride in 5th vs 4th which I'm almost always in.

Also the other thing I noticed is I adjusted my chain tension and the whole kit is moved back an inch from where it would sit if I had a shorter chain. Is it worth getting one shorter to have the kit a bit closer?

Going to try a 13 sprocket as well when I go to town next instead of the 14. See how that feels for shifting gears and getting more track speed.

 

[eric82930]

Don't worry about the clickers, just make sure nothing is locked out. If you are bottoming on jumps then stiffen the clickers but don't lock out unless you have a dire need to climb the north face of mt everest.
Weight transfer is when the acceleration of your bikes mass (including you) forces weight that would normally be on the ski to rock back onto the track. If you have no traction and it just spins out and digs a hole then it has zero transfer because there was no acceleration. That's why you want the set up to allow the front of the track to hit the floor first so you can put as much static weight onto the track(not the ski) so you can get that initial traction to get the transfer started. It's usually good to have as much transfer as possible because the conversion kit concept doesn't put the center of mass far enough back. So yes shorten your chain as much as you can to move the mass of the bike and rider back onto the track.
Once you are moving along and you point the bike up a vertical wall then your mass of bike and body are over the track and sometimes behind(if vertical) so those scenarios are when you want to use the lock out on the rear.

The beauty of the riot explained:
Most kits EXCEPT the riot amplify the transfer because the powerful force of the track is pushing the whole mass through the front swingarm which causes it to extend and lift at the same time the track is trying to straighten out over the top wheels that pulls the back of the bike down and compresses the rear shock giving the feeling of a fake wheelie.
The riot is the only kit that actually stops the fake acceleration wheelie because the swing arm is so long it pushes down on the back of the track not the front. This is what allows the riot to get away with such crazy spring rates but the ski stays down just enough to steer when you need to. Hence you can wheelie when you want to, float when you want and not dig a trench when you grab the throttle because the crazy springs can give you traction you need to start the real weight transfer and put the mass from the ski onto the track. Sorry for tmi

 

[intheheartofit]

Don't worry about the clickers, just make sure nothing is locked out. If you are bottoming on jumps then stiffen the clickers but don't lock out unless you have a dire need to climb the north face of mt everest.
Weight transfer is when the acceleration of your bikes mass (including you) forces weight that would normally be on the ski to rock back onto the track. If you have no traction and it just spins out and digs a hole then it has zero transfer because there was no acceleration. That's why you want the set up to allow the front of the track to hit the floor first so you can put as much static weight onto the track(not the ski) so you can get that initial traction to get the transfer started. It's usually good to have as much transfer as possible because the conversion kit concept doesn't put the center of mass far enough back. So yes shorten your chain as much as you can to move the mass of the bike and rider back onto the track.
Once you are moving along and you point the bike up a vertical wall then your mass of bike and body are over the track and sometimes behind(if vertical) so those scenarios are when you want to use the lock out on the rear.

The beauty of the riot explained:
Most kits EXCEPT the riot amplify the transfer because the powerful force of the track is pushing the whole mass through the front swingarm which causes it to extend and lift at the same time the track is trying to straighten out over the top wheels that pulls the back of the bike down and compresses the rear shock giving the feeling of a fake wheelie.
The riot is the only kit that actually stops the fake acceleration wheelie because the swing arm is so long it pushes down on the back of the track not the front. This is what allows the riot to get away with such crazy spring rates but the ski stays down just enough to steer when you need to. Hence you can wheelie when you want to, float when you want and not dig a trench when you grab the throttle because the crazy springs can give you traction you need to start the real weight transfer and put the mass from the ski onto the track. Sorry for tmi

That's great thanks for all the info!

I'll look into a chain this coming week for sure.

So with the front skid shock to avoid trenching (also getting on top of the snow) do you generally want this stiffer or less firm? I'm trying to visualize it and not sure. Reading the Riot manual they just mention to adjust it for more or less weight transfer, the rear for more or less ski pressure. Thanks!

 

[eric82930]

Soften the front spring with less preload. The clickers don't do anything unless the suspension is moving (bumps and jumps). Going across a flat surface of snow doesn't move the suspension at all. It finds a happy place and stays there. The springs ,strut length and fork height determine what angle the track is at when it finds the happy place.

 

[intheheartofit]

Soften the front spring with less preload. The clickers don't do anything unless the suspension is moving (bumps and jumps). Going across a flat surface of snow doesn't move the suspension at all. It finds a happy place and stays there. The springs ,strut length and fork height determine what angle the track is at when it finds the happy place.

Thanks again!

What do you think when climbing slopes do you lock just the back clicker out or the front as well? I forgot about them today

There's some hilarious videos of me trying to climb some super vertical slopes today and not making it. I'll post one here for fun.

Changed the front sprocket from 14T to 13T and either the snow was just way better today or that adjustment made a world of difference. Also shortened the chain and got the kit a little closer to the bike. Tried to change front skid shock pre-load, but was too iced up to move by hand so I'll have to do that another day.

The issue I have now is my front forks are just too soft. I have the airpro, but not sure if this would help with that. Basically can't ride as hard or aggressive and when hitting a slope they are too soft as well I think. It says it's supposed to help with bottoming, but maybe I need new oil/springs as that MXT Lucky kit is messing with things. The airpro stiffens the forks, but not sure exactly how air in the top makes it stiff enough vs a spring/revalve.

 

[eric82930]

The rear clicker is the one you want to lock(set to high) to control wheelies on steep terrain. But in the video it's hard to tell but looks like you were just high marking that hill like sleds do. It's cool for bragging rights but I wouldn't setup a snow bike just for that kind of riding. Its kind of not the point of the sport. (Buy a sled)
If you decide to run it much in the locked mode it will make your forks bottom worse. But you can just add more oil to the forks to stop the bottoming. You can add 50cc at a time to each leg until the bottoming goes away. I had good results adding tons of extra oil. There doesn't seem to be a down side other than you should drain it when you switch back to dirt. The fork oil should be changed anyway after a season of getting water in it from the ice on the sliders.
Your 500 didn't look or sound very fast in the video and I've heard they don't rev well but It could be quite likely that your buddies 450 makes more power, revs quicker and has a bigger track so all your initial concerns with the riot could be explained by that.

 

[M5-]

I've ridden bikes with stiff forks and personally I don't like them. To me they plow and push in the corners. If I was a cornice dropper then maybe I'd have a different opinion but as it stands now I don't change springs from stock. What I do though is add oil as stated by Eric, I add about 30cc to each leg and I run 15W which is like glue. I used to crank up my compression and rebound to full lock minus 1 but now I'm pretty much in the middle on both settings. More and more kits are shooting for that light ski feel so basically the forks aren't doing nearly as much as the were asked to do 5 years ago. If your bike is front heavy and you are bottoming your forks the kit isn't set up right. My old backup bike has a 2020 Camso on it and I have the forks setup identical to my Yeti even though the kit sits lower, pretty much feels the same but it does have a Yeti ski and spindle so that helps a lot. The kit needs to carry the lions share of the weight.

M5

 

[intheheartofit]

Ugh changed tabs and lost my reply, but basically not high marking that slope is off an old railbed and used to access a creek area only get to on a snowbike easily. That slope is steep, I definitely went slower than I should out of nervousness and not having gone on any slopes like that before. I was hitting 6th on the creek (probably 4th going up the slope) and was plenty fast, too fast at fully open actually.

The camso is interesting as it definitely floats better, but much less playful. Be interesting to swap kits, but too much work. My buddy on the 450 has ridden bikes for years, but only ever had a Camso snowbike. He was the one that commented he couldn't ride as aggressively because of the front forks, but otherwise RIOT/500 setup seemed good.

Good to know about the oil and see also about 15W, I'll have to look into it, didn't know about this as never dirt biked before getting a snowbike.

Thanks again!

Here's a video of the 450 going up the hill on different angle.