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avgas vs racegas

T
Feb 8, 2010
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Nelson, B.C.
Morning, I have an 09M with a 925 BB which I have just recently started running about 1 gallon of race gas with a tank of 91, I find it works very well. I have also found that race gas is about $16.00 a gallon versus $6.00 for avgas. What are the pros and cons for each? Cheers.
 
D

diggerdown

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Av gas is 100 octane, race gas 110 to115. You must have a high compression head to require mixing. If you don't have enough compression you will lose performance going higher octane. Lower the octane, the faster it explodes.
 

backcountryislife

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Spend a little time playing with numbers:

http://www.bazellracefuels.com/Calcs/OC1.htm


Just for a quick example based on prices around here, I find that it takes 2x as much av as 112 to hit the same boost (it's more like 2.2 for me, but let's keep the math simple) so if you need 2 gal of av (2 x $6/gal= $12) or 1 gal of 112 ($10/gal+ 1 more gal of 91@ $4/gal= $14) The cost is pretty close. Go with whichever one you can get easily. I buy from Bandimere raceway, and get about 30 gal at a time... it lasts me about 6 weeks or so. (I mixed 25% 112 or 60% av on my turbos)
 

mountainhorse

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AV-Gas (100LL) has a different method of rating octane, LON, than the R+M/2 that race and pump use...

Talking apples for Apples, in terms of octane.... 100LL has a MON (Motor Octane Number) of approximately 103 - 104. "Race 110" has a MON of 105 -107.

Octane is not the only property that needs to be looked at in terms of making it an appropriate fuel for motorsports.

Lots of good reading about 100LL in this thread.
http://www.snowest.com/forum/showthread.php?t=220800






.
 
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T
Feb 8, 2010
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Nelson, B.C.
I started looking at the different MON for different race fuels just to get an idea a couple of months ago and I did do a comparison to 100LL....even between the different races fuels available the advertised 0ctane versus the MON vary. In the "old days" we used to add a little av to the cars on race day just so we could throw a bit more timing in without deto on the old 12.5:1 BBC. I found on my 925 that I would deto from time to time depending on the days conditions. I also find my 925 does not like being "fat" with fuel so it runs better on the lean side (12.1:1 @ WOT) I run between 3,500-8,000 ft. which moves me in and out of the magical 5,000 ft. marker for my pipe (and yes it does make a difference). My local CAT dealer has race gas so I tried a gallon per tank to see what would happen, I couldn't get AV that day, on the couple of times out with 1 gallon of race gas per tank I had no issues with deto and the sled ran very well (high on the giggle factor).
BCL I just tried your calculator and just to increase from 91 to 94 it claims I need 1.6 gallons of 110 to make a ten gallon tank so it's not like I'm trying to get the octane number up too high. It was recommended that I run 91 and better with this engine and that is with the low compression head. I have tried octane booster, I don't think that is the way to go.
 

Thunder101

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Mountain horse is right.

The big thing is not everyone can easily get av gas and race is over the counter
At your local power sport store.
I use av gas myself and have had very good results , as tchriste mentioned once you start leaning things down the 3 to 4 octane points pay big dividends . Fuel is cheeper than pistons&engine parts.
 
T
Feb 8, 2010
406
137
43
Nelson, B.C.
AV-Gas (100LL) has a different method of rating octane, LON, than the R+M/2 that race and pump use...

Talking apples for Apples, in terms of octane.... 100LL has a MON (Motor Octane Number) of approximately 103 - 104. "Race 110" has a MON of 105 -107.

Octane is not the only property that needs to be looked at in terms of making it an appropriate fuel for motorsports.

Lots of good reading about 100LL in this thread.
http://www.snowest.com/forum/showthread.php?t=220800



All I can say is WOW that is quite a read and it appears you have done a lot of research. In my small review I have noticed that many of the unleaded race fuels ethanol (9-13%) is used and this reduces their stoichiometry( down to 14:1), I also noticed an increase in many of the leaded race fuels (15+:1). In your experiments did you happen to see a need to review your AFRs? In my 2 times out with race gas it was more tolerant of the leaner AFRs.
I also noticed your concern over the vaporizing temps, do you still have this concern?
In my research on different race fuels I have found it somewhat challenging to get a clear picture on the pros and cons, while I do like the idea of an unleaded fuel from an environmental and health point of view, there is the issue of it being ethanol based with the associated failures of ethanol fuels.
 
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boondocker97

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Check with a bulk oil distributor if you have one in the area. one of the ones where I live sells 110 sunoco for $10/gal if you bring your own containers in. Doesn't matter how much you get at a time.
 

av8er

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Dude, i'vebeen running Avgas for years

like 12 years or more, Avgas is Awesome It is relatively easy to get any fairly cheap. and is a very stable fuel, It will store for years without any problems
 

av8er

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Also any time you mix fuel

it's just an educated Guess, A science Experiment more or less. the Octane Calculator is very cool though. I did a 50 gallon mix -to get 100 octane with super 91, and 110 race gas and it came out with 27 gallons of 91 and 23 gallons of 110.

i also have a BDX oil delete, which is a small pita when I pull my Avgas from a 55 gallon drum , then mix with oil 5 gallons at a time. AVGAS is the way to go!!!
 
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mountainhorse

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One thing to ponder...

Always talk the same octane rating... as you get higher in the octane ratings of race fuels... you will notice that the RON and MON approach each other.

91 Pump premium has a MON of about 87.

I would really like to see a good quality Premium fuel that had a MON of around 94 with favorable RVP #'s and thermal properties... I really dont like that we have to jump from a MON of 87-88 (pump) to 104 or more with race/AV... a good number in the middle would be awesome.




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Thunder101

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Ya that would be nice but it would probably cost the same or close to 110 . I have found no problems mixing av with premium, sure by the numbers there could be a better fuel but it works well and it's priced reasonably .
 

mountainhorse

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I agree with the mix of 110...BUT... and a big but... Most of the country can't get non-ethanol... sure, some can...but most cant.

I'd gladly pay the same as 110 for a 94 MON fuel with good thermal and RVP properties and NO ethanol right out of the drum.





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Last edited:
T
Feb 8, 2010
406
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Nelson, B.C.
Shell premium in Canada is 91 no ethanol, however the octane is not high enough for my little rig, without something else my engine will detonate. I was running Lucas octane boost and that would work...just, the 4 litres of race gas worked much better however up here they want $5.00 a litre (just shy of $20.00 a gallon) for race gas. While I do understand the concept of "you want to play you have to pay" there are other options. I only need to get the octane up a couple of points to eliminate concerns, however the options are vast, the opinions are numerous and the availability is limited. Mountainhorse you have done a major amount of research and are a valuable resource for anyone looking for information on this topic, your knowledge has actually forced me to stop being lazy and do a better job of doing my own research. As our season is pretty much over, I'll have to wait until next year to start the testing process.
 
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