Classic Avy Traning - is it worth it?

DieselTwitch · Jan 16, 2016

I've been playing in the snow for most of my life. I've only taken a primer on "official avy training", one thing that has always bugged me about the course is that in this day in age most things can be learned online, all the course material for avy course is available for free. Its like a college degree, the info is out there your just paying for that little piece of paper. Even during the primer course I had been studying avy for a long time and really didn't get anything new form the class. With a little bit of self motivation I feel that I can learn just as much if not more than an avy class can teach. I spent 4 years in the Army and almost every training was a waste of time as far as the classroom time. the real learning came from getting out and doing. I kind of feel avy trading is the same way. I often will go out and study the snowpack on my own or with friends. I run the Snow cat for our local club and I love stopping at different places and cutting a snowpit and studying. I feel I get more this way, and my predictions are almost always on par (or even a little conservative) with the local avy center as well as CAIC. I've sat down with a few friends that have taken avy course up to level 3, and the big thing I found is that its the same info... every time. they just make you practice it over and over. and even then its not so much about snow pack structure as it is decision making tactics.

Am I wrong is this assumption?

KSH · Jan 16, 2016

Have you talked with Mike Duffy?

He uses the common sense approach to training and adjusts his classes to the level of the knowledge of the class. He may or may not be able to offer the next level of knowledge for you.

1500psi · Mar 26, 2016

DieselTwitch said:
I've been playing in the snow for most of my life. I've only taken a primer on "official avy training", one thing that has always bugged me about the course is that in this day in age most things can be learned online, all the course material for avy course is available for free. Its like a college degree, the info is out there your just paying for that little piece of paper. Even during the primer course I had been studying avy for a long time and really didn't get anything new form the class. With a little bit of self motivation I feel that I can learn just as much if not more than an avy class can teach. I spent 4 years in the Army and almost every training was a waste of time as far as the classroom time. the real learning came from getting out and doing. I kind of feel avy trading is the same way. I often will go out and study the snowpack on my own or with friends. I run the Snow cat for our local club and I love stopping at different places and cutting a snowpit and studying. I feel I get more this way, and my predictions are almost always on par (or even a little conservative) with the local avy center as well as CAIC. I've sat down with a few friends that have taken avy course up to level 3, and the big thing I found is that its the same info... every time. they just make you practice it over and over. and even then its not so much about snow pack structure as it is decision making tactics.

Am I wrong is this assumption?[/QUOTE

I feel the same as you except you can always learn that one key piece of information that may help you someday or not, there's been a lot of deaths this year and a couple of them are Avy advocates still not using their heads. Oz just died in oregon and he teaches avy courses what's that tell you.

Red Mtn · Mar 26, 2016

I know that the best trained guy in our group is the one who takes the most chances, and the one we hauled out with a dislocated should last weekend...

I think you can always learn something. I think Duffys classes are top notch. My injured buddy did his three day in Silverton a few years ago.

I haven't been to a training for years now. We have been riding and living here so long I think I have a pretty good handle on it.

Solarguy · Mar 26, 2016

DieselTwitch said:
I've been playing in the snow for most of my life. I've only taken a primer on "official avy training", one thing that has always bugged me about the course is that in this day in age most things can be learned online, all the course material for avy course is available for free. Its like a college degree, the info is out there your just paying for that little piece of paper. Even during the primer course I had been studying avy for a long time and really didn't get anything new form the class. With a little bit of self motivation I feel that I can learn just as much if not more than an avy class can teach. I spent 4 years in the Army and almost every training was a waste of time as far as the classroom time. the real learning came from getting out and doing. I kind of feel avy trading is the same way. I often will go out and study the snowpack on my own or with friends. I run the Snow cat for our local club and I love stopping at different places and cutting a snowpit and studying. I feel I get more this way, and my predictions are almost always on par (or even a little conservative) with the local avy center as well as CAIC. I've sat down with a few friends that have taken avy course up to level 3, and the big thing I found is that its the same info... every time. they just make you practice it over and over. and even then its not so much about snow pack structure as it is decision making tactics.

Am I wrong is this assumption?

Depends on your ability to educate yourself through websites, friends
And other means. Do you practice beacon searches, single and multiple burials? Do you use your avy websites to check conditions in your area? Do you know how to and do snow pack analysis and stability tests on the aspects you plan on riding? Do you understand the basic red flags while riding in avy terrain? If you answered no to ANY of these then you should do at least an AST 1. If you confidently answered yes to all of the questions you have been doing your homework and are on the same level as most who have done an AST 1. Practicing safe backcountry habits includes practicing all of the above skills and more.
Cheers and safe riding.

snowww1 · May 27, 2016

Good question. I research snowmobile avalanche accidents and use the information to steer my curriculum. Some of these interviews give some amazing insight to what works in real life. All my classes are updated every year with new information that I have learned from: my own research, leaders in the industry, classes I have taken, other guides/instructors and from experience in rescue/riding. There is much information online, but much of it is incorrect,incomplete or outdated. Also some things are good in theory, but not in practice. We are constantly trying and evaluating new techniques and teaching methods. A good educator weeds out all the bad info and presents the best info and info you will find nowhere else. Avalanche information is evolving at a very fast pace, information from 5 years ago can be very outdated.
I work with different schools and avalanche equipment manufacturers to evolve techniques to make rescues faster and education more effective. Great thing about education is that you are gaining the instructors 20+ years of experience/knowledge in a short period. You can ask questions and get instant feedback. On snow training is essential to get your skills ready for an actual avalanche accident. I have done over 1000 avalanche rescue scenarios, each time we get better and we can share what works with students. Trial and error is not a great way to learn about avalanches.
I learned how to whitewater kayak on my own. It was never boring. lol. It took me two years to learn what a beginner learns in one weekend from a school. I want to get to a high level fast and not waste time, so I take classes.
As we increase our avalanche exposure with new sleds and riding techniques, we also need to increase our knowledge to match that exposure. Never have I had someone take a class and say afterwards that it wasn't worth their time. Some people are dragged to class by riding partners and are surprised at how much they learned. You can get basic info online, but the hands on experience and techniques are best learned in a class. At Silverton Avalanche School and other schools I work with, we will put you in new terrain and new situations. Great hands-on experience. Learning by doing, not watching.
Hope this helps.

Mike Duffy
Avalanche1.com
Professional avalanche education for mountain riders.

kevinm7 · Jul 28, 2016

In my opinion, you can only learn so much from the internet. A hands on approach with a certified instructor will be able to point out those little nuances that you can't gain from an online course. I take online college courses and I sometimes struggle with the material until I can have a professional explain it to me. I feel the same would be true for an online avalanche course, or research. Don't get me wrong, the internet is a great tool and can be extremely helpful. But, I feel that you would gain more, even if it's just one tiny piece of knowledge, from listening to an instructor and having that hands on guidance. Not to mention, the instructor can sometimes tailor the training to meet your individual needs.

Goinboardin · Aug 31, 2016

I had a similar mindset as the original poster, with a similar situation. I had trained friends telling me I was at the Level 1 knowledge base. Each "primer" or "awareness" course I went to was good, but all review and very basic info. I did it all backwards. I had close calls, got lucky, nearly lost a friend (was present--thoughts of how to tell his dad, gf, family, etc ran through my head--scared the **** out of me, read books & online info, lost a friend a few years later (I wasn't present), dialed it all wayyyyy back terrain wise, no more close calls, lost another friend this past season (again, not present--it was in the OP's local range, 5 days after he posed this question), and finally took a formal class last season. I didn't learn new statistics or theories, but the hands on training was the good stuff. I had dug many pits, knew all the red flags, practiced with beacons (not enough though!), terrain selection, read the avy reports & understood them, knew good travel techniques, etc, but the reinforcement and practice were reassuring. Reading books & watching YouTube vids is a good way to go about it, but a formal class speeds up the process and ties it all together very well. Going into a Level 1 course with a near Level 1 understanding of the material & pre-existing experience will just ensure you get the most out of the course.

On a side note, when I lived in Gunnison & Crested Butte, I triggered & observed avalanches almost regularly. Moving to SE WY, I see a couple old slides a season, usually long after they've ripped. Our snowpack is never great here with the cold & wind, but the terrain pales in comparison to the Elks. The original poster is in serious avy country down there...gotta be extra careful! You can never know too much.

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Classic Avy Traning - is it worth it?

DieselTwitch

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KSH

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1500psi

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Red Mtn

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Solarguy

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snowww1

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kevinm7

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Goinboardin

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