Airbag or no airbag?!?

Missy · Nov 20, 2014

Ladies, I am hoping to start a very useful discussion on adding airbags to our safety gear. I will start out by saying I am all about it! As I have begun discussing this with friends and co-riders I am getting a lot of mixed feedback. So please weigh in, I would love to hear all opinions. When asking around about what to get I have heard many of these types of things:

"Why would you need an airbag? We don't climb anything."
"You must just like to spend money."
"Definitely do it!"
"How much is your life worth?"
"Airbags are just for those crazies that climb chutes!"

I feel like my life is worth way more than a measly grand. I would rather feel good about my decision, than regret not going with my instinct. I would never jump out of an airplane without my reserve chute and I almost feel like why not have something that can give you a better roll of the dice if something were to happen???

So riders experienced and new, what is your opinion on this subject. Do you ride with one or not and why???

LoudHandle · Nov 20, 2014

I'm not in the habit of entering the powder room, but the subject caught my attention and thought I'd share some thoughts.

I personally have not bought into the hype of these devices; that said If I were to buy one it would not be a CO2 based system for the following reasons.

CO2 is an asphyxiant, one breath of it and you are dead. Do you really want that in your breathing zone? Granted the bags are pretty durable, but do you really want to gamble in that kind of a situation?

If I were to buy a bag; I would demand a breathing air based cartridge for inflation. The likelihood of you being able to pop the bag when buried is slim but it is a possibility in certain situations and having extra breathing air may mean the difference between surviving the avalanche / burial and not surviving it.

My two cents for what it is worth

dtown · Nov 21, 2014

I'm not aware of any that use CO2. BCA uses compressed air and I believe Snow Pulse does too. ABS uses nitrogen. Both use a venturi effect and pull in outside air. You pull the trigger long before you are buried. You pull it as soon as the slide starts, you don't wait to see if it's a "big enough" slide and then decide to pull.

It's not hype. ABS has been around for many years and they have the statistical data to show that you are hugely more likely to survive if wearing a ABS bag.

This will be my 3rd year riding with an ABS bag. My wife finally purchased a BCA bag this year. We hope that we never have to pull. We all spend huge sums of money on sleds, riding gear, and life insurance (2 young kids at home). Why not make a small (comparatively) investment in a device that will greatly increase your odds of making it home.

Avi bag, beacon, shovel, and probe are all pieces of the pie, but make sure you take an avi class every year or two. Education is your biggest survival tool.

WhiskeyTee · Nov 21, 2014

First off. Co2 is is not one breath deadly as claimed above. It does not attach to red blood cells like CO. If you can get the victim to fresh air quickly it cleares right out of your system. That being said, ABS uses nitrogen to power the Venturi that fills the bags. If I remember correctly the ABS cylinder only accounts for about 20% of the volume. The rest is outside air. Additionally. The air you breath now is made up of 70% + nitrogen. I have an ABS pack that sees use for both snow shoeing as well as sledding

COgirl411 · Nov 21, 2014

Backcountry Safety

Great topic!!! If your skis touch a mountain with a 25 degree or greater slope, you are in avalanche terrain... that pretty much sums up all of our terrain in Colorado.

I think women, especially the petite (read short, I'm 5'4), will struggle with finding a bag that fits well. I went to the snowmobile expo this year and tried on all the bags I could and none of them felt excellent. I've asked questions in other forums and women have responded that they have visited a tailor to have the bag adjusted, I think that's an excellent idea. My biggest suggestion is to try on the gear before making this big investment.

I'm in the process of purchasing a bag so I'm interested in seeing what others share. I think its worth the cost and effort to lug it around. I hope to never deploy it but it would be a priceless resource if it allows me to survive a slide and live to ride another day.

WhiskeyTee · Nov 21, 2014

COgirl411. Did you get a chance to look at the ABS powder 15 or powder 5? They are a very petite pack

Missy · Nov 21, 2014

COgirl411 said:
Great topic!!! If your skis touch a mountain with a 25 degree or greater slope, you are in avalanche terrain... that pretty much sums up all of our terrain in Colorado.

I think women, especially the petite (read short, I'm 5'4), will struggle with finding a bag that fits well. I went to the snowmobile expo this year and tried on all the bags I could and none of them felt excellent. I've asked questions in other forums and women have responded that they have visited a tailor to have the bag adjusted, I think that's an excellent idea. My biggest suggestion is to try on the gear before making this big investment.

I'm in the process of purchasing a bag so I'm interested in seeing what others share. I think its worth the cost and effort to lug it around. I hope to never deploy it but it would be a priceless resource if it allows me to survive a slide and live to ride another day.

I am 5'4 as well so let's keep each other informed on the information we gather. :face-icon-small-coo

bholmlate · Nov 21, 2014

We actually breath out Co2 every time we exhale so lets stop the hysteria over Co2. Yes in concentrated levels it can kill you and that is what does you in when you are buried. You deplete the oxygen levels and increase the Co2 levels every time you breath out. that is why an avi-lung can be beneficial to use when skiing in the backcountry becasue it moves the air that you exhale away from your air pocket you are breathing in the event you are trapped in an avalanche. Not sure that a fire suppression system for a large building is a fair comparison to a volume in a airbag canister anyway. The idea of the Airbag system is to keep you buoyant and above the snow. The only flaw in any safety system is the stupid human that is behind the situation in the first place

skibreeze · Nov 21, 2014

LoudHandle said:
I beg to differ, in a concentrated dose it is one breath fatal. I suggest you do some additional research before spouting misinformation. Yes it is true it does not attach to the blood cells, but that is not what makes CO2 deadly. When the body realizes no O2 content in the lungs it goes into respiratory arrest, You quit breathing on your own. One good breath of CO2 can cause this.

Granted I did not realize that most packs use a Venturi system and draw in surrounding air during inflation. But I know that the few CO2 systems used in fire suppression we still have at work are indeed one breath fatal as they are designed to completely rid the building of O2, so they are 100 percent CO2 and as such are indeed one breath fatal. It only takes a 14% CO2 concentration to render you unconscience and is considered IDLH (Immediately Dangerous to Life and Health) at that level and above.

Personally I will not risk my life to that assumption. As when you are trapped in an avalanche, you are trapped. And if the Venturi malfunctions or gets clogged with avalanche debris you are still breathing CO2 instead and are dead anyway.

Again Just my opinion, I'm sure the salesman will try his best to sugar coat the flaws in the design for your reassurances and $.

I think that your assumptions are quite silly. First, you inflate long before the snow stops moving, so a clogged venturi........ really? Second, your assuming that a bag was punctured after you stopped moving and buried........ yeah, not likely. Third, with the venturi, a majority of the air in the bags is breathable. fourth, ABS bags don't even use CO2.

You can continue to risk your life over ASSumptions, I will not ride without my ABS.

D-stroyer · Nov 21, 2014

I'm a fella as well and this topic I think is really important for all you ladies. Instead of derailing the conversation about Co2 vs N2 packs this should be a conversation about:

a.) The size and weight of avalanche airbags can be an encumbrance to diminutive riders. How can the manufacturers of airbag systems tailor their products in both size and weight to better serve female riders who by and large are smaller and lighter than their male counterparts who dominate the industry? Are there go-to products women should be steered toward?

and/or

b

What are effective packing/on-sled storage strategies to offload non-essential equipment(food etc.)from the rider to offset the weight of their airbags?

Additionally, the now discontinued Avi-Vest may have been a worthwhile product for women as it offered mass centralization. Should a call be made to our industry to reproduce a similar product?

Here's a radical idea that bears debate among you: If the airbag manufacturers could develop a smaller, lighter airbag system on the caveat that there was a weight limit would you buy one or would you suck it up and carry a big pack?
Ok go!

Missy · Nov 21, 2014

D-stroyer said:
b What are effective packing/on-sled storage strategies to offload non-essential equipment(food etc.)from the rider to offset the weight of their airbags?[ b

I know I would be willing to carry only shovel, probe, radio on my airbag pack to cut down on weight. My Burandt tunnel bag holds a ton so I have plenty of storage.

Is this the vest you were talking about?

http://www.snowpulse.com/en/rubrique/produits/snowmobile-products/protech-vest/

D-stroyer · Nov 21, 2014

Missy said:
I know I would be willing to carry only shovel, probe, radio on my airbag pack to cut down on weight. My Burandt tunnel bag holds a ton so I have plenty of storage.

Is this the vest you were talking about?

http://www.snowpulse.com/en/rubrique/produits/snowmobile-products/protech-vest/

Those are great ideas for offloading your gear to the sled. Does anyone else recommend other bags for on-sled storage? What is everyone using for this? Does it serve your needs? What could be better?

Not that vest specifically, but in spirit it might be what lots of ladies are after. It says it's "body adjustable" but there's a big difference between a petite woman and a large fella. ABS offers two sizes for their Vario platform: a large and, more importantly for this conversation a small. I have a large, I can't imagine such equipment offering so much adjustment that someone 12" shorter(I'm 6'2") could find a suitable fitment.

What bag are you using and what improvements could be made to suit your body type/size more effectively?

Wowmom · Nov 22, 2014

YES!

If you ride anywhere other than flat lands you should wear a airbag.

I had the pleasure of listening to a lady AT an avalanche class say over and over for 4 hours that she never gets off the trail, she doesn't need all that expensive stuff, blah blah blah (and she paid for the class) Last year I saw several groomed trails in Colorado that were hit by slides. Some in areas not expected. Yes, they are expensive, but this isn't the cheapest hobby around!

As per size. I'm 5 foot 2 in heels. Everything is HUGE is in this sport! Thumb throttles, helmets, sleds, risers, gloves, fuel cans you name it its a struggle. I went with a backpack it felt like the weight was against my body instead of hanging off my shoulders (make sense?) That being said, it is too long. When I sit on the seat it hits the seat and my helmet. I am going to modify it to fit me. We have two AV backpacks in my house (BCA & Wary) both are long on me also, not just the vest. I ride with men who are very small and some ladies who are a foot taller than me, so its not really a gender thing - we are all created differently!

As per stuff on the sled. I have a Powder Keg and LOVE it, it has a life kit in the lid (shovel, saw, flashlight, fire starter, etc) I pack food, extra clothes, my big medical kit, survival kit in my keg. In my backpack, a probe, shovel, mini first aid & survival kit - in case I loose my sled. www.powderkegllc.com

Murph · Nov 22, 2014

5'2" wears BCA Float 18

I wear a BCA float 30 and Val (5'2") wears a BCA Float 18

I like the floats because I can fill off our Scuba Tanks-- we can blow the bags for fun/practice and refill. When we go on road trips, I carry a full high pressure tank with me and we can usually get 4 BCA fills out of it. So, BCA bags are filled with the same breathable air we put in our scuba rigs.

Nothing bugs me more than seeing husbands/ boyfriends wearing airbags and beacons and their significant others have no avalanche gear on.

The argument that you are riding the flats in the mountains is like saying that you are not going to get in a traffic accident so you are not wearing your seatbelt.

I'm not afraid to say I have publicly shamed more than a few make riders when their female companions weren't safety geared up to the same levels as themselves. If we always knew when and where avalanches were going to strike none of us would need airbags. Last year, the snow was horrible in Tahoe. We rode Bend, Alpine, West Yellowstone, Buford, Cooke City among others. In many of those places I saw slide debris across groomed trails. That is my argument for no safe place on a mountain.

I don't know what I would do if I lost Val for any reason, but knowing that we didn't spend the money on an airbag for her--unthinkable.

Finnlandr · Nov 23, 2014

"I'd rather have it and not need it....than need it and not have it."

mtnjunkie · Nov 23, 2014

I think it's better to have if in any mountains. I'm trying to find one that fits well also. I really like the snowpulse bag that protects your head and neck and wish they made that in more bag options. I also don't think you should put all your essentials on your sled. I still want some snacks, emergency blankets, heat packs, basic first aid in my bag although I often have extra on my sled. If a few sleds are buried and you have to attend to injuries you must have essentials on your person. For weight loss I keep tools, extra food, tow ropes, etc on my sled. But could survive with just my backpack.

av8er · Nov 23, 2014

the BCA Float 22's

are the lightest of the BCa bags.

wjl · Nov 24, 2014

I have the first generation ABS vario in short, it works very well with a tec vest and after 6 years of use it feels weird not to have it on when riding.
The best advise I can give is when buying wear what you wear while sledding also bring and load the pack you are trying. The same model packs are not exactly the same sometimes.
As said above better to have it and not use it.
Another bit of info, don't just practice in house try to acativate it in a riding situation. Way diffrent.
Are they worth it yes JMO
Good topic.

COgirl411 · Dec 4, 2014

BCA 22 Float

Purchased a BCA Float... happy enough with it... but i'll need to get a new chest plate to make everything work... gear gear gear gear gear gear gear!!! love/hate relationship!!!

Missy said:
I am 5'4 as well so let's keep each other informed on the information we gather. :face-icon-small-coo

Missy · Dec 4, 2014

COgirl411 said:
Purchased a BCA Float... happy enough with it... but i'll need to get a new chest plate to make everything work... gear gear gear gear gear gear gear!!! love/hate relationship!!!

Fits pretty good? Even with your garb in it?

Airbag or no airbag?!?

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