Price VS quality? whats your thoughts?

How is the mention of pump gas, turbo, and reliable all listed under the same scenario? Maybe at 8000' and up but not very realistic at lower elevations from the turbos I've been around. Are all of the new kits pulling timing? Most of the stock sleds have a hard enough time getting the proper octane before you start adding power increases. When talking quality vs price, lower price is not going to have all the bells and whistles for controllers (timing etc), intercoolers to help intake charge temps, most likely have a less expensive turbo w/out as good of flow characteristics. I see a low cost kit (although I am cheap and would buy one) having a greater need for an increase to octane levels. Cheap kit would be the farthest from driving to the pump and also being able pull and go IMO.

swrev said:

How is the mention of pump gas, turbo, and reliable all listed under the same scenario? Maybe at 8000' and up but not very realistic at lower elevations from the turbos I've been around. Are all of the new kits pulling timing? Most of the stock sleds have a hard enough time getting the proper octane before you start adding power increases. When talking quality vs price, lower price is not going to have all the bells and whistles for controllers (timing etc), intercoolers to help intake charge temps, most likely have a less expensive turbo w/out as good of flow characteristics. I see a low cost kit (although I am cheap and would buy one) having a greater need for an increase to octane levels. Cheap kit would be the farthest from driving to the pump and also being able pull and go IMO.

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This is a good point , I get everyone is on a budget but at what point do you "buy once cry once".
Everyone who hopes for 200+hp at elevation at 6# from a $3-4000 kit , is living a dream. Turbos are loosing power with elevation as well...
6# boost can make more power then 10# i've seen it first hand.
Turbos , superchargers , Bigbore , NOS , timing, fairies, whatever... its cylinder pressure that makes you power , don't get caught up to much in boost numbers.

But from what I see , price is the driving factor. I think its the "good enough" mindset.

I am interested in seeing a nother test with both housings and adding pressure to both exhaust and comp side. I am not possitive but I bet after doing so you will not have any oil 'blow by'. Or maybe more just another test I would like to see.

I think that you hit a topic that is hard to nail down.

Let me describe my personal situation as it probably describes the market you are talking about. I have been riding off an on for 8 years. I guided while in college because it was a cheap way to play on snow. I would say in the last 5 years I have become a lot more serious about riding and improving my skill set on the mountain. I purchased a 2013 pro a few years back and have put quite a few miles on it. 2 years ago I spent some money to go to a riding skills class to improve my skills enough to ride pretty much anywhere I want to go.

Last year I spent the majority of my time riding in the Uintah's and spent most of my time above 9k elevation. I rode enough last year to notice the power change that would occur when leaving the trailer and riding at elevation. It was enough to frustrate me to no end when I would be riding a tree line and feel the sled just run out of power to where I would have to either turn down to a lower line or turn out all together because there wasn't a line to ride.

This year I purchased 2015 holdover because I like cutting edge and not bleeding edge. (4k+ cost savings on buying a year old sled) I have been looking at Turbo's for around 2 years thinking if I should pull the trigger or not. I have read a lot of forums about the problems everyone faces with turbo's and it seems about 90% of the problems arise from 2 things. 1. Poor installation 2. Poor fuel/ boost choices.

I purchased a turbo this year and want to set the boost between 7-8 lbs and not tinker with the thing all season. The reason I purchased the turbo is I want more consistency in power through elevation changes. My riding preference is in the trees picking out lines that offer a technical challenge yet can still be pretty safe from avalanche danger.

This is my first turbo and I am smart enough to know that I should not be running anything over 10#'s I also know that I don't have the technical knowledge to tune my sled to top notch. I can do most of the wrenching needed to repair something but to make it perform 100% is not in my wheelhouse. So yes I want a pull and go turbo because I don't want to spend my weekends working on something. I work enough during the week I just want to push the throttle and make smiles.

That is what most of us are looking for.

brycter said:

Yesterday. We started testing some ideas that would take money out of our kit making it less cost. First item on the chopping block. Oil pump, Billet Oil Tank, lines, site glass, electrical, bolts and about 15 min install time.

On our face book page turbo performance turboboyz. I posted up a video.

This is what we did. Took a stock snowmobile oiling pump and brand new remanned center section. Hooked up oil tank, primed pump, blocked off the oil drain, hooked one line to oil inlet, hooked drill to oil pump and pumped away.

Oil goes everywhere........ out compressor, and mostly out exhaust turbine side. What a mess!

What is the thought process here?

I have heard everything from. "the oil will atomize and go back into the motor." "The oil will just burn up in the exhaust" " there is only a tiny bit of oil going into the center section"

Go see for yourself how much oil flow there is.

Turbo performance will have to stick to the old oil tank and pump.

p.s. if anyone knows how to share that vid here link it up. :wine:

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I hope this isn't what passes for R&D. It is the equivalent of hitting a part with a hammer to decide if it's strong or not. There are multiple variables unaccounted for and no data collected. This would be a fail as a middle school science experiment.

If spending 20 minutes doing a halfassed test is enough to convince you something doesn't work and to just go back to the old way, it's easy to see why you're having a hard time innovating and adding value to your kits.

I'm not a huge fan of deadheading the oil feed either, but at least do some valid experiments with some data to support it before trying to discredit others.

I have been around a few of last years kits with the configuration you are talking about. I don't notice any mess. Oil coming out of exhaust... Ect. It seems to work fairly well. I am not sold either, I know it has some short comings. I am hearing possible wheel speed and longevity questions.

I have spent a bunch of years dealing with pumps, resi's ect. I for one would gladly trade a little wheel speed for not dealing with the other parts. To me loosing those parts increases simplicity. The cost factor is not as big.

intereting ok some folks chime in

who has a bunch of miles on a inj. lube setup ? at least 3 companies running them last season

i had this thought today about the fuel controler vs non adjustable

I'm not sure someone with a controler will have the know how/skills
to tune their kit any better than the turbo company built map ?????
how many kit owners only run the standered provided #s from company ?

Nnill nan

Can't you run some sort of pressure regulator? Or will that reduce flow too much. We used to do that with our Mits. The pumps we had could run a pressure washer, but used regulators on them.

I haven't really followed that other company with the same turbo as you. That's not a oiless is it? My understanding is it never fully worked?

I haven't paid close enough attention. The million dollar question still is where does the oil go. I like the mechanical pump idea. It gives me a warm fuzzy it will always work.

You could put a restrictor in the feed line and dump the excess into the intake. I've only ever had a turbo four stroke but it just had a gravity return line to the oil tank, very little oil actually came out.

icr said:

You could put a restrictor in the feed line and dump the excess into the intake. I've only ever had a turbo four stroke but it just had a gravity return line to the oil tank, very little oil actually came out.

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My thoughts as well....

Install an appropriately sized relief valve on the drain port to maintain pressure in the bearing housing & vent the oil back into the intake.

Having seen the lackluster performance of the Walbro pumps firsthand & yet the turbos still seem to survive, I don't think using the factory injection pump is a stretch. Just have to work on the plumbing design a bit....

It was pointed out a while ago in a discussion that we are not expecting the same lifespan out of a turbo in a 2 stroke sled as we would out of any application in the automotive world so having an "all out" lube system may be adding extra cost for negligible benefit???

FWIW.

I like this top. If a cheeper part is going to last 10 years as opposed to 30 I think a person is just overbuilding their product. Plus even the 30 year stuff will break. I understand it helps you sleep better at night, but most people don't even notice or have a sled for more than 4 years, and the next guy will want something different anyways. Plastics are cheep so cutting I think is a mute point.

I know TIME is money. Especially in todays world. GO GO GO! So tuning is HUGE. I am looking at purchasing turbo kit and to me its in the tuning. A cheeper/expandable kit with Vipec would be amazing. If the engine/turbo is tuned to run optimally it will be as reliable as it can be. I have towed out plenty of stockers. Sacrifice lbs of boost for optimization all day long. People say reliable but really an engine is only as reliable as the engine is. If it is tuned optimally it won't be any different.

Don't get me wrong I like some kits more than others for the way the turbo sits, and routing of hoses but I am not going to spend 2-4K extra for any of that. I would pay the extra to know my computer is directly matched to whole system. just my 2 cents.