Price VS quality? whats your thoughts?

I think its called competition. A few years ago there were very few putting out kits and they were charging ridiculous prices, but hey its snowmobiling and there's always plenty of guys out there who are willing to spend ridiculous amounts of money to beat their chests and boast to their buds. Now more of the average joe is looking to buy and he's not gonna just pay whatever some producer wants. He's gonna look around and get the best deal his buck will buy. He shops around and doesn't just drop his sled off and pay whatever the bill is when he picks it up. He want's to know upfront what the cost is and exactly what he's getting. If he doesn't like what he hear's he'll go somewhere else because now he can...

I like the idea of options. Reasonable kit giving you some reasonable boost without sacrificing pull n go ability. Nothing more annoying to me than being the guy who is always tinkering with his sled. Rode several times with a guy who couldn't stop talking about his turbo dragon but he never could make it to where all our well setup stock 13 pro's could. Yes not a fair comparison, but simply saying if it can give me some extra fun factor and run well on 91, I will bring you 2K tomorrow.

Edits for typos. Damn touch screen keyboards.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

A funny fact is-People LOVE cheap sheott. It doesn't matter if its gonna break an hour later, they buy it. You can explain to them that it's gonna break and that they would be better off buying a different item for 30% more and never have to buy it again. but nooooooo. They buy the cheap item and then buy another one when it breaks. Now they paid 70% more for 2 cheap azz items when they could have got only one good one that lasts!
The cheap theory has made Walmart Billions and billions. Do people go to Walmart because of quality? No. They go because it's cheap. I love Walmart btw.
The punchline to my story is-If it costs less than everyone else's kits, people will buy it. Actually, they will flock to it!
The aftermarket sled biz sux cuz its so short and you have to work all year round to participate in a 3 month crazy sales season..
My advice is to look at your 1 year, 3 yr, 5 yr and 10 year company goals and work toward them. Figure out if you want to put out thousands of kits and get out in a couple years or maybe not so many kits and have better quality and customer service and reputation and stay around forever. I think you have excellent customer service right now.

Hard to decide for "everyone" where you should go cheap and where to spend the money. I sure was disappointed in silbers oil pumps in the begging. I cant believe it even crossed their minds to sell the kit with that pump.

Most guys I speak to that don't run turbos don't because they tend to be a pain in the neck to get them consistently run properly. If a factory level of reliability and pull n go style turbo system was realistic with say 6-7lbs boost, and were relatively inexpensive I think they'd sell like crazy. Most people just want to ride. Not constantly worry about their equipment, or constantly tune it... or even occasionally tune it... That's why we're all happy to pay a little more for a fuel injected sled. In the past you couldn't have performance and reliability. I think we can and should now. I think the big boost customer/tinkerer is a different demographic. A much smaller piece of the pie. It has somewhat to do with the initial investment into the kit, but probably more to do with hassle of tuning and reliability. It doesn't help that it's harder and harder to access quality fuel. A low boost, low cost, highly reliable kit would be a big hit. Of course it would have to gain a reputation for reliability. No matter what kit you have turbos do not have good reputation for reliability. Warranted or not.

i have thought real hard about buying a kit for my sled. i dont need the best/highest HP kit, but i dont want a walmart kit either. the issue i have is reliability. something that nobody has mentioned yet is......there is a fairly high percentage of mountain riders that live nowhere near a mountain. myself, for example, will drive somewhere between 8-12 hours one way to get to cooke, w. yellowstone, big horns, togwotee, etc....


i have alot cost and time away from home going to do something i love. i am not going to jeopardize time in the backcountry by bolting some unreliable part onto my sled. it doesnt matter what it is. handle bars, exhaust, tunnel bag, or a turbo. i know anything can break at any given time, but i dont want to sacrifice precious time doing what i love. i will continue having fun on my stock HP sled until i see a near "stock reliable" turbo kit out for $3-4000. i will not roll the dice on a budget part that will ruin my weekend in the mountains. if that is not possible, then i guess boost is just not in the cards for me........even though a 180-200hp 2 stroke sled at 10k feet elevation would be awesome!


if you can sell a NEAR STOCK reliable, pull and go kit for $3-4000.....i would look at it pretty hard. but i just dont forsee that happening, and i am ok with that. i also want a 800hp sports car for $20 grand, but i have come to realize that is not possible either!

I don't know why "reliability" has become such an issues over the past few years. A properly setup kit with good components will be reliable all day long.

My first low boost kit was 7-8lbs and last year was 11lbs plus and both acted the same day in and day out, so I would take boost levels out of the equation and ask if builders are running proper setups with intercoolers and boost levels. No good running kit is going to run 10lbs of boost consistently without intercooler on every day riding. Maybe for 200miles, but at some point there will be problems.

Good , fast , cheap ... Pick two

i agree the reliability seems to have come up alot in the last few years
and the companies offering ecu reflash or no end user adjustments
have been getting good press for a couple years

as to the intercooler what would you say the boost lbs cut of is for non cooled ?
how does outside air temp play into that ?

good and cheap ha ha

To be honest Bryce i think Silber has done a "spot on" price for quality product this year with the Axys turbo kit. 3500$ for a smoking good turbo with internal BoV & External WG.
Also they got a upgrade for watercooled intercooler that for most people aint needed. Slightly priced (+750$) to be honest but i havent seen the complete componentlist of it so shouldnt say to much about it...
Overall seems like nice fit and finish with short "plumping" of the tubes and intake, with the philosophy "K.I.S.S". Keep It Simple Stupid. :hippie:

Also like their placement of the turbo. Makes plumping alot easier and alot more space for a bigger exhaust can. Because thats one of the most annoying thing with all turbokit makers. Their to loud....
I know silber is soon releasing another can for a more quiet ride so that will be nice.
But in BD's example where they've mounted the turbo downlow... They dont even have an option to make a bigger exhaust can... hwell:

So if you are going to make a turbokit and realese it on the market. Please go with their philosophy! K.I.S.S or aka most bang for the buck :face-icon-small-coo

My 2 cents is make it affordable. 3-4 grand max. 7-8lbs, no end user tuning. I can't afford a turbo that's 8 grand. Don't want or need all the extras. Looking for a good middle of the road kit. One thing that's been neglected here is GOOD install directions and video that actually has ALL the steps. Install is so critical and I'd venture to guess that most problems are user install related.

Have a friend wanting a turbo but can't swing 5k+. Other less expensive kits are out due to personal reasons so there's no option there for him. Compounding the problem is being able to ride out west 1 week a year. 5 grand plus is a LOT of money for 1 week of riding a year.

inspector01 said:

It's called value (in the more specific lean manufacturing context) and whoever provides the most generally does very well. The people who are out there innovating and improving their process with regards to value are helping the whole community by offering better parts at better prices.

Click to expand...

Value, amen!

Its all about performance vs $$ vs reliability. Also, consider, with the changing chassis' and technology we have available in our industry, most turbo kits are obsolete within 2-3 years.

As a dealer, builder, whatever I have done so far I can tell you the things guys want to their sleds to do.

#1 Perform consistently (rideability). Winter is short and if you have limited access to riding time, your enjoyment factor revolves heavily around having something that works when you need it to and provides and enjoyable riding expereince.

#2 Cost - nobody in the sledding world has money to burn, reality of it, there are some guys who have much larger play budgets then others but why spend an extra $2-3k on a kit if it has no more "value". Some guys will just because they assume the most expensive is the best, but

#3 Pure performance - I know thats what we like to get super critical of, As someone who has built kits and understands what makes them go I do know we tend to put a lot more weight on this even though it tends to be blown out of proportion. As long as your kit makes reasonable "industry average" hp for the boost levels your running its kind of a null point.

The guys who want the fastest arm ripping sled on the market can spend 7-8k to race each other up hills. Joe blow and everyone else will enjoy a $4k kit that is 90% as fast and use there extra cash to pay for an extra trip or two and all their gas for the season. So reality is they got more "VALUE" then anyone else!

Kits are an investment, were looking for $$ per smiles.

I think Wheel House nailed it for the most part.

If I were in the turbo market, I'd want 200-215hp on pump fuel, very little to no lag, no end user tuning, No EGTs or A/F gages to have to watch, COMPLETE install instructions, maintenance guidelines, and ALL the parts to do this for 4-5K. If extra items like an intercooler and vents are needed to achieve this reliably, I'm ok with paying for it. As long as it works well and I don't have to dink with it.

brycter said:

How much value do you place on the company selling the product. 10% 20% 100 % ? what things do you put a companies value in? gross sales number? stickers? (meaning apperence) work ethic? most heard name? advertising? sponsor ship?

Click to expand...

dont look into the advertising/sponsorship stuff too much. this is MY OPINION and i am sure some will disagree, but..... i dont know if it's the fact that i am getting older and seeing through the BS, or the fact that sponsorships are starting to mean more talk and less action.


when i was growing up, if you saw a micheal jordan shoe commercial during an NBA game, you knew those shoes were a quality product. the good guys wore the best, and in some cases, got paid to advertise the product. if you bought a michael jordan sneaker......you were pretty much guaranteed that it was a good product. did it cost more because it said "air jordan" on it, probably....but it was a good product.


in the snowmobile world i see "dan adams this", "chris burandt that". half that stuff is junk with some paid rider's name on it. and it is all getting to be too cliche. i am to the point where i totally stay away from some of that name brand stuff that the pro's are pushing. it is the same crap as the next company, it just wasnt endorsed by a big name guy. in alot of cases, the non-name brand stuff is BETTER.


take for example....i had the "brett rasmusson" skinz front bumper on my sled. they brag about how they will take a tree, and brett rides in the trees all the time blah blah blah. that bumper is the biggest piece of garbage i have installed on a sled in the last 3 years. the sad part is, i bought it because some big named guy endorsed it. when in reality, it looked like a 5 year kid welded it together and it folded the first time i kissed a tree. i had a buddy with a http://bmfabrications.com/ bumper that i personally watched bounce off trees with, and it does nothing but chip off the powder coat. now i have one of those on my sled.


another example is the dan adams bags, burandt bags, etc.... they are all average quality things that priced high because of someones name on them. now compare that to http://www.sledsolutions.com/store/ storage bags. their quality is twice of the others, but it doesnt take a professional's endorsement and 100% markup to prove that. the product does the talking. i have yet to see someone tell me a sled solutions storage bag was not worth the money.


so there you have some small town guy(s) http://bmfabrications.com/ out in the middle of nowhere USA making these bumpers that are 10x better than the big brands. they dont rely some paid rider to push their product. they work off of their reputation. there are alot of people that look at this website (some of which read into the BS way to much), but that is another story. you can make a pretty good name in the western US sledding scene just on this website IF you can push a good product. but, if that product is a turbo kit, and it takes $6000 to make a good one, that might just be the nature of the beast. as i mentioned before, i want an 800hp sports car for 20 grand..............some things are just not achievable.

what is industry standard hp?

i have no idea ( i've always wanted 200 hp )


Does anyone look for knowledge anymore? or do we just care less? In some ways it is good if you don't ask questions at least for me. General public becomes uneducated and selling of hype becomes even easier.

i'm actually very interested in knowing and understanding the turbo field
just because someone wants to K.I.S.S. doesn't mean we want deception
or hype

How much value do you place on the company selling the product. 10% 20% 100 % ? what things do you put a companies value in? gross sales number? stickers? (meaning apperence) work ethic? most heard name? advertising? sponsor ship?

i place the company at a very high value ! how esle will you be supported as a customer ?
service , honesty and quality gross sales mean nothing to me i want to hear from folks that have used their products (not paid folks )
the funny thing is is that you usually don't know till you try them out for yourself what they'll do or how they'll support you

great thread by the way and yes name calling (companies) is unneeded

as to the end user adjustments in my opinion most people aren't expert tuners so they end up tinkering with it alot and even when right your always wondering could it be better ? am i running it too close to the edge ?
all while trying to enjoy the snow and friends and nature
not to mention bumming your friends out who just wanna ride :face-icon-small-dis just some thoughts

brycter said:

what is industry standard hp?

How much value do you place on the company selling the product. 10% 20% 100 % ? what things do you put a companies value in? gross sales number? stickers? (meaning apperence) work ethic? most heard name? advertising? sponsor ship?

Click to expand...

My intention wasent to start some brand bashing... :hippie:

HP = More then 1hp/1000$. ~200hp

Different type of costumers want different type of products. And i think the majority wants a simple install with as little fiddling with the fuel numbers as possible.
But then some people do want it and thats why it might be a good option to make an "upgrade kit" for people who do want it.

Actually the "value" of the company doesnt matter imo... Just the value of the product and how much bang for the buck i get, with focus on reliability and what kind of quality on the products im getting.

What the bottom line is (and I base this on owning a race engine shop for 25+ years) is 95% of riders want good power, pump gas, and ZERO issues. Now what I mean by zero issues is "like their stock sled" Now as far as power level goes IMHO based on my riding in Montana most people would like around a legit 190-200 HP.
First question I would have for engine buyers is can you read a plug ? Can you adjust your own valves? Can you do a leak down test? Do you feel comfortable pulling the pan to check bearings ? ect ect Then we base the level of complexity/power based on this level. That way I don't have "issues" with motors. Same goes for a sled except more so as its supposed to be FUN to ride, its not a race car to work on. Sure my 903 200+ HP SLP race motor was insane fun to ride, however it was totally above 95% of sledders to tune and work on and would be a nightmare in the wrong hands. (think 8 hours work for every hour of riding on that sled)
In todays instant gratification world people expect things to work perfect with no issues, this my not always be the case but its what they expect.
Its just like a turbo car, turn key it goes...period. thats whats wanted, at a"fair" price.
So to sum up just make a kit for around 3500-4000 that runs pump gas at whatever boost you can tune for safely with ZERO ways for the consumer to touch and mess with and you have it made. You do NOT want adjustable boost by the end user in the base level kits, you do NOT want any way the end user can mess with the programming, you do not want any extra guages or anything other than " me pull rope and ride fast, uhg" (lmao) in these base kits.
Oh and quiet would be nice as well :face-icon-small-coo

brycter said:

Sorry.. I am not pointing fingers or naming brands anywhere in this thread. This thread is not for bashing or bring up of names. I know it is easy to assume and compare by brand names. but that is not the point here. general talk and discussion are what we are looking for thank you. I throwing myself out there. We have not lost confidence in our product or the way we go to market. We really truly want to build product for you guys and dofor a life time. things are changing and where else could we get this kind of input.

Up until this thread I had not realized how much everyone wants to rely on the super tuner for his or her riding experience. I have always felt you are stuck with whatever tune is given to you. you can not adjust for rider weight, clutching, changing of tracks, turbo sizing, or any other mod you might do. so this kinda plays out the senerio of base kit with mods unless you are going to reflash everytime.

In ecu tuning there is a max of 5%-15% + or - in any pid senerio or "closed Loop" condition. sure you can make the number bigger but you change the consistency. in other words your fueling becomes lazy. Is this all you guys are looking for? tune in the ball park? I am getting a little bit of a mixed signals here. Pull the rope and ride but also be spot on. Are on different ends of the spectrum. that's why I have a shelf full of 400+ page catalogs here. because stock doesn't fit the bill. maybe I am looking at this wrong here. We get to close to the equation sometimes.

what is industry standard hp?

Does anyone look for knowledge anymore? or do we just care less? In some ways it is good if you don't ask questions at least for me. General public becomes uneducated and selling of hype becomes even easier.

How much value do you place on the company selling the product. 10% 20% 100 % ? what things do you put a companies value in? gross sales number? stickers? (meaning apperence) work ethic? most heard name? advertising? sponsor ship?

maybe you guys are getting sick of these question and if you are I understand. Please keep the info coming we are listening to everything you say. :biggrin1::heart:

Click to expand...

The thing with the end user tuning Bryce is 95% of us don't know jack about tuning up a lawnmower let alone a two stoke turbo sled with all kinds of variations... then there is 4% who think they do know how to tune but really don't (blown motor) and about 1% who actually do know how. So its either ride it in that range where it works but not perfect or take it out to someone and pay them to tune it on the Mountain. Most people don't want anything to do with the later, they just want simple and something that works because honestly they don't even know that its running "lazy"...

For the original question of the thread, You say "price vs quality" I say price vs performance and reliability.... If it works it works if it don't work it don't work... If you can run a cheaper part and it performs and its reliable then use it. If it doesn't perform or isn't reliable look for a different option. This is all up to you as a builder to figure out what works and what doesn't, word will get out whether your kits perform and are reliable or if they're not.