who's running strait pump gas ?

Kenny B · Sep 27, 2014

On a few occations over the last two seasons on my turbo sled, I "loosened" plugs, I actually would make the center ceramic loose, not the base, all of which happened after the sled backed down... or hit the rev limiter, not sure which as I didn't have the vipec at the time, I went up two grams of weight and it happened once after, I attributed it to detonation, as the det light would flash. Light Flash's when it hits the rev limiter as well from my understanding. The last time I damaged a plug, it cracked a ring land, messed up the lower case, hench my engine is at Indy Dans. Happened on a uphill climb, got some air, kept it squat... she made it running, minus a hole in the motor and a number of turbo fins....

I'll be adding 7 tooth drivers and a 3" 156 track for this season, by the sounds of this I'll be speaking with Gino on some gearing options.

kanedog · Sep 27, 2014

Skidon't-It will "seem" like your sled ran better with 91 octane because lower octane ignites more violently than slow burning avgas. So yes, your sled probably seemed to perform better on lower octane. The problem happens when, on boost, that violent fuel exposion turns into detonation and destroys your motor. If you ride like a girl, and I mean that in the nicest way possible, you may be fine. it's the when the motor is making lots power and heat where the trouble begins.
That being said, run whatever your research tells you to run.

kanedog · Sep 27, 2014

I have never heard of any engine having problems because it's not being loaded.
I can learn something new everyday though. That would mean that 90% of Dodge diesels are for ego and show will soon be having engine problems.
Crappy thing is tho, most turbos aren't loaded more than 25% of the time. Probably more like 10% of total running time. This can be verified by Polarii's digital wrench where it tells you what % of run time the engine is a at wfo.
If unloaded motors are causing plugs to separate the porcelain, we gonna a lot of engine issues.
i don't think a chain case vs belt drive difference causes any damage motor wise.

Wheel House Motorsports · Sep 27, 2014

Had a silber reflashed ecu setup last spring running straight 91 at 8500+ in cooke. 7# with external wastegate. only issue i ran into with hitting the det sensor was in the morning it had frozen overnight and was kinda icy. would smack the rev limiter and det, loosen plugs, etc. same with holding it WOT and going airborn. as soon as snow melted off a little and got so the paddles could sink in, no over rev, no issues.

on the note of over octane. definately dont just run straight 110 when you barely need more then 91, makes the sled super lazy. a mix with just enough octane to prevent det with a little margin of error is right where you want to land. Im not font of turbo kits running high boost just for that. bottom end with straight race combo'd with heavy clutch weights makes the sled sluggish then violently powerful when it lights. just not very linear power at all. not fun to me.

Kenny B · Sep 28, 2014

Wheel house is definitely right, over octaning can cause as many problems as under octaning, like when I run straight 116... hard to start when cold, almost embarassing sometimes, actually I can think of one time it was super embarassing... But anyhow, I wanted to rule fuel out, and I did.

I can see where Vipec is coming from, they have mad open trails and can definitely swing the clutching out on the straights over there. Two years ago I had lots of problems with plugs, when I had the boondocker "as supplied" clutching, definitely not setup for sea level. As wheel house said, alittle icy, a little air, long straight, I would bounce the rev limiter, there goes a plug. Added 4 grams of weight, didn't happen again till last year, new setup, more power, killed a plug. I'm not quite sure what I'm going to do with the over rev in the air or studder bumps, I can gear the **** out of it for loading the motor with traction, I'm thinking a better exhaust (larger diameter stinger) and a different turbo (GTX3076) might lower the pipe pressure, and keep the piston temps alittle lower, maybe a little touch on the limiter won't cause severe detonation if the cylinder/piston/heads were alittle cooler. Maybe my line of thinking is flawed abit, but I don't think a sled should self destruct if it bumps the limiter every now and again. I'll ask Indy Dan on monday when I speak to him about my motor, see what his thoughts are.

Ski-Dont89 · Sep 29, 2014

kanedog said:
Skidon't-It will "seem" like your sled ran better with 91 octane because lower octane ignites more violently than slow burning avgas. So yes, your sled probably seemed to perform better on lower octane. The problem happens when, on boost, that violent fuel exposion turns into detonation and destroys your motor. If you ride like a girl, and I mean that in the nicest way possible, you may be fine. it's the when the motor is making lots power and heat where the trouble begins.
That being said, run whatever your research tells you to run.

7 lbs of boost all year last year. hit the det light one time. rode nearly 1000 miles with turbo and never had an issue yet. (knock on wood) 1800 miles total on the motor and havent touched it since new. either im just lucky or i ride like a girl. lets go riding sometime and you can be the judge.

Vi-PEC Powersports · Sep 29, 2014

kanedog said:
Skidon't-It will "seem" like your sled ran better with 91 octane because lower octane ignites more violently than slow burning avgas. So yes, your sled probably seemed to perform better on lower octane. The problem happens when, on boost, that violent fuel exposion turns into detonation and destroys your motor. If you ride like a girl, and I mean that in the nicest way possible, you may be fine. it's the when the motor is making lots power and heat where the trouble begins.
That being said, run whatever your research tells you to run.

Kanedog, it doesn't seem to run better on 91 octane... it runs better on 91 octane for a specific tune/ignition combination. I can guarantee if you have a "91 octane tune", your sled will perform much better than if you swing 98 octane fuel or av...much crisper,better low end ect....regarding heat on boost, we keep pounding for the last 3 years " efficient intercooling" is a must on a 2 stroke turbo sled.

kanedog · Sep 29, 2014

Ski dont-if your running 91 octane with 7 lbs boost and your sled is still alive you ride like a girl. No doubt about it. No matter how much fuel you throw at it or what tune you have, its gonna det at WFO. But hey, if you can use 91 then go for it. Not worth it IMO for what, $20 more a tank? There's a heckuvalot more drag racers than sledders. Why don't you see any pump gas automobile superchargers/turbos that make any amount of decent power? But hey, what do I know.
Sure, come on up and ride with me. If you don't
1. make a brown mess in your pants
2. cry
3. make any lame excuse as to why your sled isn't performing well
4. see det on your sled
5. Opt to go around any climb
I will pay for your trip expenses. Should be about at least a $1500 value. It's in writing so plan for between April and Mid June to hit good weather. We will be sledding in Whistler area.
Oh yeah, if you do any of the above, you pay me $1,500. Fair is fair, right? We show cash before the ride and bring it on the ride.

Vipec-I agree that it'll run better on 91 on lower rpm throttle. We both agree on that.
No matter what tune or ignition setting, if your running 91 octane at WFO you will be detonating. Sleds have crazy high compression ratios so there is nothing fuelling wise with 91 that will change that. its the same as a 600hp 8 cylinder engine. There's no way anyone in their right mind would put 91 in a 600 hp car. Sure, we can hypothetically say, ya but we can retard the timing but then it loses too much power. Why even have a turbo then?
My point is, your on borrowed time with 91 but each to his own.
I don't necessarily agree with inner cooling on sleds as we are already in subzero temps so the engine is gonna get some cool temps. Yes, it will help some riders but most riders will never push their sled to the point where they would be able to tell the difference.
I'll offer you the same deal as skidon't so if you wanna come sledding with me bring an extra $1,500 in case you do one of the above. One caveat-NO EXCUSES on the mountain. Not even a small one.
Worse thing can happen is that you meet a new friend and someone could take home $1,500 bones.

Ski-Dont89 · Sep 30, 2014

apologies for questioning your authority kane. was not aware you were such a turbo genius

Kenny B · Sep 30, 2014

Wow.... This thread is gone to ****..... Now it has turned to calling people out..... Time to put the popcorn in the machine.

op2:

goridedoo · Sep 30, 2014

kanedog said:
Ski dont-if your running 91 octane with 7 lbs boost and your sled is still alive you ride like a girl. No doubt about it. No matter how much fuel you throw at it or what tune you have, its gonna det at WFO. But hey, if you can use 91 then go for it. Not worth it IMO for what, $20 more a tank? There's a heckuvalot more drag racers than sledders. Why don't you see any pump gas automobile superchargers/turbos that make any amount of decent power? But hey, what do I know.
Sure, come on up and ride with me. If you don't
1. make a brown mess in your pants
2. cry
3. make any lame excuse as to why your sled isn't performing well
4. see det on your sled
5. Opt to go around any climb
I will pay for your trip expenses. Should be about at least a $1500 value. It's in writing so plan for between April and Mid June to hit good weather. We will be sledding in Whistler area.
Oh yeah, if you do any of the above, you pay me $1,500. Fair is fair, right? We show cash before the ride and bring it on the ride.

Vipec-I agree that it'll run better on 91 on lower rpm throttle. We both agree on that.
No matter what tune or ignition setting, if your running 91 octane at WFO you will be detonating. Sleds have crazy high compression ratios so there is nothing fuelling wise with 91 that will change that. its the same as a 600hp 8 cylinder engine. There's no way anyone in their right mind would put 91 in a 600 hp car. Sure, we can hypothetically say, ya but we can retard the timing but then it loses too much power. Why even have a turbo then?
My point is, your on borrowed time with 91 but each to his own.
I don't necessarily agree with inner cooling on sleds as we are already in subzero temps so the engine is gonna get some cool temps. Yes, it will help some riders but most riders will never push their sled to the point where they would be able to tell the difference.
I'll offer you the same deal as skidon't so if you wanna come sledding with me bring an extra $1,500 in case you do one of the above. One caveat-NO EXCUSES on the mountain. Not even a small one.
Worse thing can happen is that you meet a new friend and someone could take home $1,500 bones.

Did you ever even ask what elevation he rides at? 7 lbs of boost on pump gas at 1000' is a whole lot different than 7 lbs of boost at 12000'.

kanedog · Sep 30, 2014

Heehee-ya I got off my meds and I thought it was a good idea to stir the pot. The sites pretty tame rt now and I think I'm on the border of another week of infraction in the penalty box. I'll play nice. Trying to get everyone riled up for this year!!!

Skidont-How dare you question my authority. Especially my turbo authority!

Goride-No I didn't ask what elevation. I assumed around 7000 and all I did was make *** out of me!! If it is 12000 then he will be fine except for the ride up!

Daltech · Sep 30, 2014

Overseas here in Scandinavia most turbo guys run pump gas. AV gas is difficult to get to, and race gas cost big money. Pump gas has been the undefined goal for most guys with turbo since it started.
To make it work, most turn to rk-tek turbo heads and lower cr to 10-11:1, wich makes 10-11 psi runnable at sea level.
Power vise you would see 200-230hp depending on kit and type of sled.

JMCX · Oct 1, 2014

kanedog said:
Ski dont-if your running 91 octane with 7 lbs boost and your sled is still alive you ride like a girl. No doubt about it. No matter how much fuel you throw at it or what tune you have, its gonna det at WFO. But hey, if you can use 91 then go for it. Not worth it IMO for what, $20 more a tank? There's a heckuvalot more drag racers than sledders. Why don't you see any pump gas automobile superchargers/turbos that make any amount of decent power? But hey, what do I know.
Sure, come on up and ride with me. If you don't
1. make a brown mess in your pants
2. cry
3. make any lame excuse as to why your sled isn't performing well
4. see det on your sled
5. Opt to go around any climb
I will pay for your trip expenses. Should be about at least a $1500 value. It's in writing so plan for between April and Mid June to hit good weather. We will be sledding in Whistler area.
Oh yeah, if you do any of the above, you pay me $1,500. Fair is fair, right? We show cash before the ride and bring it on the ride.

Vipec-I agree that it'll run better on 91 on lower rpm throttle. We both agree on that.
No matter what tune or ignition setting, if your running 91 octane at WFO you will be detonating. Sleds have crazy high compression ratios so there is nothing fuelling wise with 91 that will change that. its the same as a 600hp 8 cylinder engine. There's no way anyone in their right mind would put 91 in a 600 hp car. Sure, we can hypothetically say, ya but we can retard the timing but then it loses too much power. Why even have a turbo then?
My point is, your on borrowed time with 91 but each to his own.
I don't necessarily agree with inner cooling on sleds as we are already in subzero temps so the engine is gonna get some cool temps. Yes, it will help some riders but most riders will never push their sled to the point where they would be able to tell the difference.
I'll offer you the same deal as skidon't so if you wanna come sledding with me bring an extra $1,500 in case you do one of the above. One caveat-NO EXCUSES on the mountain. Not even a small one.
Worse thing can happen is that you meet a new friend and someone could take home $1,500 bones.

I don't see where the guy claimed to be king of the mountain. He just said he rides hard at his 7 pounds of boost on pump gas.

More information would be nice though. Like which kit and at what elevation.

kanedog · Oct 1, 2014

Your right, he didn't claim to be king of the mountain. What he did claim was that he didn't have any issues with det(except once, excuses excuses) and he claimed he could run 91@7lbs with no problems. I simply offered a free trip for him if what he said was true.
Funny thing is, he's not exactly booking a trip up here as fast as he can. That right there tells you something.
I'm not challenging him to keep up with me or do crazy things. What i am challenging him on is to see if his sled performs as he says. I guarantee it does not. Not because his kit is no good, not because he can't ride, but because if you sled at any amount of different elevation and ride more than on a trail, you have to adjust your fuelling for temp, elevation, snow type etc.
I just don't like people talking crap and not backing it up. Still pics don't tell you anything.

daltech-I am a bit spoiled fuel wise as I live in a major shipping port city and pretty much anything I need i can get within a day or two. Avgas is 30 minutes away for me so that would suck if it was hard to get. I like the idea of lowering CR if you can't get the fuel you would like to run. That's the funny thing though. You get clowns on here claiming 12+lbs with a 12-1 or 14-1 CR on pump gas. These clowns have no idea what they are talking about or they ride trailer queens. I only call 'em as I see 'em and some people get all weird when they hear the truth.

Ski-Dont89 · Oct 2, 2014

My sled does run as i said. Period. As i also said i usually mix in one to two gallons of av per tank, although i have ran straight pump before with no issue. Yes i did see the det light one time the whole season which was around 1000 miles of riding. You asked me to book a trip in june? why would i want to book that large of a trip and travel that far to ride spring snow? and i know its stupid for you to say you would pay for my trip. also i dont know how any of what i said was talking shet.

also im using last years silber kit with the bully dog. i ride cooke city, togwotee, and the big horns most often. never below 8000 feet basically

05900 · Oct 2, 2014

kanedog said:
Why don't you see any pump gas automobile superchargers/turbos that make any amount of decent power? But hey, what do I know.
same as a 600hp 8 cylinder engine. There's no way anyone in their right mind would put 91 in a 600 hp car.

Funny It works for me all day every day..
Supercharged BDGT 600hp
Only500hp N/A
600hp tuned LS AWD 55

kanedog · Oct 2, 2014

So let me see, you drive 3 different cars all day everyday? Ya. ok. Pictures don't mean squat. A vehicle sitting in a shop means you burn 91 and have 600hp? Your a complete idiot if you built and run 3 different vehicles over 500hp with 91. Post what the compression ratios of those pump gas monsters are. Then we can talk. Got any time slips? Didn't think so. Dyno sheets? Didn't think so.
You and the other clown, skidont, should get together and post still pics together of your 91 octane burning monsters. Maybe even rub one out together on each others screens. You can call them screen shots.
Post a vid if you want any cred.

skidont-I took it wrong. I thought i read that you run 91 100% of the time. I am wrong. I now understand you mix one or two gals of avgas with 10gals of 91 which gives you maybe 93 octane. i still think you ride like a girl. That's the only explanation why your turbo can survive on 93 octane. Your version of riding hard may be a quick burp wfo every now and then.
I said to book a trip between April and June. You might be a big fish in a small lake with your turbo. Thats why i want to open your eyes up to chit you never dreamed you could ride before.
Stop making excuses. Book that trip. We have good beer.

05900 · Oct 3, 2014

Uh oh here we go with another assclown wanna be engineer know it all about nothing.

Why am I an Idiot Mr kanedog? I did build the 55 pump gas motor to be emissions legal as well..91 is pump gas is what ya get most places. 93 is at some Sunoco etc.. So
really not practical.

Porsche is factory.. google it jackass.. probably pretty hard with your cranialanal affliction.

Supercharged Toyota TRD also pump gas factory warranty..91 pump gas at that.

Once you finally stop playing with yourself and manage to get your head out to keyboard jockey some more please explain how the Dodge Hellcat can't be real and run on pump gas and pass emissions and is a figment of imagination..from idiots

Maybe if words are to hard for you You Tube has a lot of pictures that move and tell stories..

Let's see some more of that Tennessee Turbo Authority how about a picture of your awesome timeslip makin 100 octane machine

427 SBC Injected and Intercooled Twin Turbo
1380 HP with 1400 TQ using race gas and 980 HP with 900 TQ
using pump gas. This is bare none are best selling twin turbo
motor. This 427 SBC sounds incredible and has big block size in
a small block package. You won’t believe how docile and drivable
this motor is.
At Nelson Racing Engines our slogan is "We Make Horsepower."
How do we go about doing this? It just may have something to
do with our reputation for building the baddest twin turbo beasts
on the market.
DAILY DRIVER
SERIES
$37,200 http://www.nelsonracingengines.com

It's just $$$

Vi-PEC Powersports · Oct 3, 2014

kanedog said:
Vipec-I agree that it'll run better on 91 on lower rpm throttle. We both agree on that.

---Yes we agree.

No matter what tune or ignition setting, if your running 91 octane at WFO you will be detonating

---Absolutely wrong.

Sleds have crazy high compression ratios

---Wrong again, my rmk runs stock compression 11.5:1 wich is not crazy high.

so there is nothing fuelling wise with 91 that will change that. its the same as a 600hp 8 cylinder engine. There's no way anyone in their right mind would put 91 in a 600 hp car.

--- My personal single turbo 1994 supra runs on 91 octane @ 24psi (580whp) for the last 8 years and it is still running like a champ( 32psi on water meth injection on 91 octane fuel(680whp)).

Sure, we can hypothetically say, ya but we can retard the timing but then it loses too much power.

---- Wrong again, there is not only timing in a custom tune on a standalone ECU, there is so many things you are missing the target on, it would be too long to explain.

My point is, your on borrowed time with 91 but each to his own.

---I do not agree with you.

I don't necessarily agree with inner cooling on sleds as we are already in subzero temps so the engine is gonna get some cool temps.

---fan cooled sleds are things from the past but still sleds are seeing subzero temp .......if you follow me here.

Yes, it will help some riders but most riders will never push their sled to the point where they would be able to tell the difference.

--- a turbo will push up to 85 degree celsius compressed air in the intake in less than 10 seconds, where an efficient design intercooled(water/air) sled will keep temps stable at around 0 to 5 celsius temps.....it ain't question of absolute power here but more about long term reliability, heat is what a motor hate the most.
Thanks for the riding offer but i am not a top notch mountain rider( i am not bad but average i would say) but if you want a 700 hp , 54psi ride on an 1100 turbo drag sled you are welcome(if you can stick to the handlebars !

who's running strait pump gas ?

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