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View Full Version : 09 Dragon 800 Top End Rebuild


Jeff95
10-11-2011, 03:19 PM
I have a 09 Dragon 800 and rebuilding top end with upgrades.
Here is what I doing:
1) Fix it kit. with all new gaskets, seals and O-rings.
2) SLP Coolant bypass kit.
3) New Fuel filter.
4) Replaced green O-rings on top two injectors. Had to remove to remove cylinder.
5) Installing SLP 6000 and above head.
6) SLP single pipe and can.
7) Fluid oil tank with Polaris Blend oil (Blue). Also putting 32oz in first tank of gas.
8) Taking all PV5 tuning about 7800 that is negative and zeroing for break in.
9) Installed SLP Blue/Pink drive spring and MTX 68gram with 2g tip & 1g bottom weights.

I have PV5 (DTRD810StockStoutnerJan157hpWOT tuning) with 2010 update ECU flash. Motor ran good pistons looked good and most of the cross hatching was still visable. Set cylinders to PMS to hone and set ring cleance.


Questions I have:
How many heat cycles should I do to break in?
Anything else I should check or do before putting back together.

I would like to get a couple more seasons out of this sled.

Jeff

KrazyKen
10-11-2011, 03:40 PM
I just did the "Fix" and new cylinders in my '09 800.

The only thing I question is your oil, even though I'm a firm believer in the Polaris Blue, which I run in my '02 800 and my 700 mod, due to it's improved lubrication qualities over other (mostly synthetic) oils.
I have switched to Redline Race Oil. It is highly recomended by SLP and many others in these injected engines.

I will follow the MTN TEK guidlines and run the mix in the tank for at least 100 miles but i am also running it in the oil tank. It will cost me more but I'm not taking any chances on this thing.

Right now I have 5 heat cycles in mine and I'm planning on doing about 2 per week until we ride. I figure the more the better unless someone can tell me different.

Good luck,
Ken

Jeff95
10-11-2011, 03:49 PM
I'm just using the blue until the break in is done. I have been using the Polaris Gold and thinking about changing to Redline. Is it OK to change after using Gold for three years on bottom end.

Jeff

KrazyKen
10-11-2011, 04:38 PM
I'm not about to claim that I'm an oil expert, but, I've done a lot of reading on 2 stroke oils over the years. As far as the VES Gold goes, for bearing protection I would say it's at the bottom of the list with those 3 oils. I switched from the gold to the blue on my 02 and ran a whole season with no issues at all. Frankly i like the way my pistons look better. As far as exhaust valve build up goes I didn't see much if any difference. I had an 04 600 that was running on the blue and my 800 on the gold, cleaned the EV's at the same time and after a full season, one was no worse than the other. Never had a sticking issue.
I would just make sure and drain the tank completely when switching one to the other.
I can understand why you would want to break in with the Blue over the Gold, i'm just not sure how the injectors will like that oil.

Jeff95
10-11-2011, 05:20 PM
Shawn at PMS recommended blue for break in.
How did your pistons and cylinders look?
Polaris recommends the same for breaking in new sleds.

2XM3
10-11-2011, 06:40 PM
pop the case apart and change the pto side bearing and seal....just to be really safe. imho

Jeff95
10-11-2011, 06:53 PM
I did that when I melted the mag piston about 800 miles ago!

Best sled ever to keep your mechanical skills tuined!!!!:boxing::faint:

KrazyKen
10-12-2011, 07:09 AM
Shawn at PMS recommended blue for break in.
How did your pistons and cylinders look?
Polaris recommends the same for breaking in new sleds.

That's news to me, but makes perfect sense. I know that on just about any engine it's best to break in on a mineral based oil over synthetics. i was thinking that I heard that the injectors don't like it but i could be wrong. Oh well, last night I did heat cycle #6 so it's a done deal with the Redline for me. I did pull the E-valves again and from what I'm seeing everything looks great so far.

kahonies
10-12-2011, 09:34 AM
That's news to me, but makes perfect sense. I know that on just about any engine it's best to break in on a mineral based oil over synthetics. i was thinking that I heard that the injectors don't like it but i could be wrong. Oh well, last night I did heat cycle #6 so it's a done deal with the Redline for me. I did pull the E-valves again and from what I'm seeing everything looks great so far.
Not to be stupid. What are talking when you say heat cycles?

gerrman
10-12-2011, 09:58 AM
I have a 09 Dragon 800 and rebuilding top end with upgrades.
Here is what I doing:
1) Fix it kit. with all new gaskets, seals and O-rings.
2) SLP Coolant bypass kit.
3) New Fuel filter.
4) Replaced green O-rings on top two injectors. Had to remove to remove cylinder.
5) Installing SLP 6000 and above head.
6) SLP single pipe and can.
7) Fluid oil tank with Polaris Blend oil (Blue). Also putting 32oz in first tank of gas.
8) Taking all PV5 tuning about 7800 that is negative and zeroing for break in.
9) Installed SLP Blue/Pink drive spring and MTX 68gram with 2g tip & 1g bottom weights.

I have PV5 (DTRD810StockStoutnerJan157hpWOT tuning) with 2010 update ECU flash. Motor ran good pistons looked good and most of the cross hatching was still visable. Set cylinders to PMS to hone and set ring cleance.


Questions I have:
How many heat cycles should I do to break in?
Anything else I should check or do before putting back together.

I would like to get a couple more seasons out of this sled.

Jeff


I have same year sled and have/am making basically the same changes. FIx Kit installed, no bypass, FTX motor plate & Power Addition 12.5 head(3000-5500'), PCV c/w SLP map. Polaris blue for break-in, then VES Gold2. Redline oil is just way to expensive where I live. Nobody carries it, have to order in. Will do 4 heat cycles, that's enough. Nov 5 will be first ride of the season. Like you Jeff I have to keep this machine for another 3 years or so. Good luck!!!

pura vida
10-12-2011, 12:27 PM
think you are way good on heat cycles. i usually do three. don't think more is necessary and could potentially have negative effects (although i have no personal proof of this). i would absolutely NOT use polaris gold. i personally like non-synthetic oils but am currently using red line. good luck. should be a ripper when it ready to go.

pv

KrazyKen
10-12-2011, 01:02 PM
Not to be stupid. What are talking when you say heat cycles?

Running the engine at idle until up to full operating temp, or beyond. The thermostat in these sleds is 120 f. I usually let it get to about 130 and shut down. Takes about 10 minutes at idle. This allows the engine to run with heat soak in the cylinders and pistons to get full expansion. It's not the same as when a load is put on it since the piston temps get hotter but gives the rings a chance to seat and cylinders break in before loading it.

Jeff95
10-12-2011, 01:08 PM
On the Gold do you mean for break in or in general?
I have not tought about the oil in gas effecting the injectors. Is the tinking that the oil may slow the flow through the injectors?

I hope I can keep up my buddy who got a new 2012 ProRMK 163.

KrazyKen
10-12-2011, 01:17 PM
I've heard a lot of negative comments on the VES Gold. Personally I can't pin any of my previous failures on it but I've heard accounts where they claimed oil related issues. I switched from the Gold to the Polaris Blue in my two carbed sleds with great success. I've been told, and read, that there is no substitute for the Redline Race oil. SLP states this along with many others. I know successful race teams that swear by it and won't run anything else. I know it's expensive but I need this thing to survive. I was assuming it was good for break in use. I hope so anyway cause it's done now.

kahonies
10-12-2011, 01:38 PM
Thanks KrazyKen for the clarification on heat cycles.

thefullmonte
10-12-2011, 02:27 PM
It wouldn't hurt to check the throttle body boots on the engine side just to make sure they aren't de laminating. I don't see any real reason to change the PCV settings on break in, but that is ultimately your decision. It all comes down to what you are comfortable with.

Jeff95
10-12-2011, 03:24 PM
Good idea, I will check the boots.
Adding fuel to the 7800 RPM and above is not just for break in but for the new High Comp. Head. After break in I will montior plugs and adjust if needed.

diamonddave
10-12-2011, 08:33 PM
It wouldn't hurt to check the throttle body boots on the engine side just to make sure they aren't de laminating. I don't see any real reason to change the PCV settings on break in, but that is ultimately your decision. It all comes down to what you are comfortable with.

Look what the Cat dragged in....where you been?

Jeff95
10-15-2011, 10:25 AM
Thanks for the tips!
The Throttle body boots look good and going to put back together next week.

I put installed the Team 64-40er.46/64-44er.46 helix last year and didn't notice any difference. I also messed with weights to try and get the RPM's up about 8000.
What changes should it make over stock helix?

Jeff

Jeff95
12-06-2011, 11:32 AM
Update:

Took sled out for first time after top rebuild.
Problem #1:
When climbing the temp. would rise to 160-170 than lower after letting off the gas. This was do to some air bubbles in cooling lines. Added cooling ran a bit problem of rising temp. went away.

Problem #2.
When doing short climbs full throutle the engine light would come on and go into safe mode. The plugs looked rich so thinking maybe put to much oil in gas for break in. Drained all gas from tank added new gas, installed new plugs and took computer with me for PV5 tuning. Found that the mid range was too rich and top end was too lean. I also noticed that at 5500 feet elevation the motor liked the richer top end but when climbing at 6500 feet I could lean the top a little. Is this because of the high compression head?
I'm thinking of having two maps one for trails to mountains and one for bondocking. The trail map would be richer on top end (7000 rpms and up). I added about 3 persent to the top end of the map.

It seems like the safe mode is very sensitive and 3% makes a bike difference.

Looks like I have to go through and retune after installing Fix kit, SLP High compersion head, SLP pipe & can.

SLP PV5 map looks to be lean on the top end for 5000-7000 feet elevation.

Buy the way 3% more fuel on top dropped PRM about 300.

Jeff

akrevrider
12-06-2011, 11:30 PM
Polaris blue semi synthetic to break it in and Amsoil Interceptor after that and no oil related issues in four new sleds.

My sled has the 08 fuel map & 08 head, the Fix Kit and an Aaen single pipe with stock can (this produced the most hp per a dyno run).

I'm running a PCV with a custom fuel map with a little fuel added in the mid-range & a little fuel taken out on the top end.

Don't have enough time on it this season to say how much better it runs with the 08 map & head but it is running really good so far.

akrevrider

Jeff95
12-07-2011, 09:02 AM
Does the 08 map have the same safe mode detection as the newer maps?
I running the Jan/2010 map and seam to be going into safe mode allot.
I was running the Wayne Stoutner 1/1/2010 map. I'm going to try the SLP map it adds less fuel in the mid range. After boondocking down a long ridge I hit the gas and had no power. I had fouled a new plug that I put in earlier that day. SLP told me that with the 13.2-1 head you don't need to change the fuel map. They use the same map for Stage 1-3 kits. I would think the head would change the mid to top range!

Its close so just need to tweek a bit.

One of these days I will get smarter or lucky and get it running good!

chumbilly1
12-07-2011, 06:44 PM
Iknow that pms is running the 08 map, and that the fix kit will raise comp ratio a little. If you cannot get non ethanol fuel I would give it a little 100ll or 110 leaded race fuel. 2 gallons per tank goes a long way to fight detonation. Most good engine tuners will tell you that e-10 fuel is horrible for sleds,and that it is not what they meen when they say pump gas! good luck.

Hawkster
12-07-2011, 09:49 PM
I've already posted these on another sight so I apologize for sounding like a torked off SOB but any quality oil will work because it's not going to save you from this . Do you see anything wrong with the piston ? Besides the normal skuffing on the bottom which is the norm for these 800s' Totally backwards ,the piston out lasted the sleeve on this 2010 with a little over 2000 miles . The Fix is sitting on the bench , just waiting for the jug to get back and after this season it's gone. Poos' new saying less is better on the pros ? Are we really that @#$%@! stupid to pay more for less ?

jim9006
12-08-2011, 08:50 AM
Crikey! Thatís exactly how mine looked with just under 600 mi.. $576.00 and 22 days later US chrome had the cylinders back in my hot little hands ready to go. One day after that I had my MTK kit installed and now Iím heat soakín till snow falls.

Eli
12-08-2011, 10:34 AM
I've already posted these on another sight so I apologize for sounding like a torked off SOB but any quality oil will work because it's not going to save you from this . Do you see anything wrong with the piston ? Besides the normal skuffing on the bottom which is the norm for these 800s' Totally backwards ,the piston out lasted the sleeve on this 2010 with a little over 2000 miles . The Fix is sitting on the bench , just waiting for the jug to get back and after this season it's gone. Poos' new saying less is better on the pros ? Are we really that @#$%@! stupid to pay more for less ?

The cylinder didn't last because of the piston clearance/design. Fixing the piston will also help prevent that cylinder issue. Better that you found the crack under inspection than explosion!:tea:

JUSTIN
12-08-2011, 03:22 PM
That is damm near identical to what my 09D8 Cylinders and pistons looked like after a 1000 miles. I am guessing, is that the mag side?
You(Hawkster) say those are of your 2010? The 2010 Cylinders were supposed to be a thicker walled cylinder, I almost had 2010 cylinders put on but went with the Carl's Cycle 860 Kit instead, makes me feel way better about my decision(many $ for 860 kit) not to do the 2010 cylinder's.
Have any of you checked your bulkhead for cracks in the welds? Look at the area that would be under the y-pipe. It can be hard to see but take a flashlight and inspect were the welds end. All four of the 09D8 in our group have had cracks start were the weld ends. The mileage varied on each sled but they all had it, mine was a pretty minor crack but some of the others were cracked pretty bad.
All said I am loving the power and torque of the Carl's Cyle 860 Kit and feel more confident not having the Polaris Cylinder and piston's in it.
Let it snow :)

Hawkster
12-08-2011, 07:34 PM
Hope she works for ya jim9006 because I'm doing just what you did . Eli , the piston clearance is about as snug as you can get , nothing like the slop of the 08s' and 9s' , JUSTIN ....... the pile's a 2010 and it is the mag side, bulk head is still good , for now .

Eli
12-08-2011, 09:39 PM
As I understand, the short pistons still have more tendency, even with proper clearances, to wobble....to scuff....to break(itself and surrounding parts(the cylinder!))


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hawkster
12-08-2011, 11:49 PM
I see what your saying ELI and after seeing how far the piston drops down to the crank I'd say that's the other problem. I've come to the conclussion that poo is at least ten to twenty years behind on there engine technology . Remember the 670 rotax ? They keep making mistakes others have already done in more ways than one . Who am I to say ?:smile:

jim9006
12-09-2011, 09:09 AM
Hawk, I will post up when I have more data. So Far I’m like’n what I see. I do have one question for you though. Did you measure your piston to cylinder clearance? Mine was over .007 on each one on a sled that had slightly more than 500mi on it. (.006 is max per Polaris spec.). I could literally rock the pistons back and forth in the bores when I removed the heads (doesn’t do that now with the PMS kit installed) and .005 clearance. I spoke to my dealer / mechanic and they did not measure when installing the update….. Turns out they didn’t start doing that until the returns started coming back (because they, like the rest of us believed Polaris!).

Hawkster
12-09-2011, 11:44 PM
jim9006, I didn't measure the clearance but when I stuck the new piston from the kit in it before sending it to the same guys you sent yours there didn't seem to be a differance , nice and snug nothing like the photos from the 8s' and 9s' You can tell by the one on the photo that it was a good fit for having over 2000 miles. I made my own intake filter with a SPI filter and a presock , and sealing up the leaky air box so there's no snow scuff on the piston just that unusual wear at the bottom of the intake side , no scuffs on the exhaust. I'll be anxious to see you reports and I'll also do the same. It's funny how dumping money and busting your hump to fix something makes you actually appreciate the pile.

volcano buster
12-10-2011, 07:53 AM
Have any of you checked your bulkhead for cracks in the welds? Look at the area that would be under the y-pipe. It can be hard to see but take a flashlight and inspect were the welds end. All four of the 09D8 in our group have had cracks start were the weld ends. The mileage varied on each sled but they all had it, mine was a pretty minor crack but some of the others were cracked pretty bad.


Any photos for reference?

Mentzel
12-14-2011, 12:53 AM
Are the updated Polaris pistons cast or forged? Forged pistons such as wisecos will typically require more clearance because they expand more. .0075" is not un-heard of for high perf applications.

However, for cast pistons that clearance is too loose and will cause many issues. Piston skirt breakage, seizure, excessive ring blow by, cracked cylinders to name a few. .0055-.0065 clearance is more common for cast pistons.

An option if the pistons are too loose is swain tech coatings. They work great in many applications! If the clearance is greater than .0065" I would match up wiseco pistons or coat the cast ones with swain tech pc9. That is if you can not bore cylinder and get correct size pistons. (nikasil)

Mentzel
12-14-2011, 01:07 AM
Back to the subject matter, did you check your TPS voltage? This is a critical first step before tuning with the PCV5.

Also there are zero issues with VES Gold oil! Anyone that tells you differently is wrong. I have ran many full mod race engines on this oil both snowmobile and watercraft with great success.

SLP is of course going to sell you redline.... The old lady on the corner is going to sell you amsoil!

Jeff95
12-14-2011, 12:46 PM
Yes check TPS and OK.
I going to try the 08 Flash. Not sure what base map to load for PV5. Think I will add a little in mid range to be safe.

If anyone is running the 08 flash with PV5 it would help to see the PV5 Map.
I have not seen a map on the forum and maybe it would cause more problems with everyone adding there 2 cents.

Maybe start with the SLP map and take away 5% in the mid range and zeroing top end until getting more run time on motor.

Jeff

Jeff95
12-18-2011, 04:37 PM
Wow!!!
The 08 map works great. Tuined the fuel and ended up with only taking a little off the top (7000-8250). My plugs are dark brown and it rips!

Need more snow.:smow::usa:

Jeff

civerson86
12-18-2011, 07:06 PM
After having my cylinders honed and having the piston too cylinder wall clearance checked and everything being on the low end of the specs I decided to install my fix kit. Got her all put together one heat cycle than did a compression test......both cylinders read 155 lbs of compression on each cylinder, before with the updated piston it only made a 117 each hole with the same compression gauge. Strike any red flags 40 pounds is quite a bit of change? DETO? Wut do you guys think

IDPOLARIS
12-18-2011, 09:07 PM
What head are you running what's your elevation and did you check you piston to head squish.

IDPOLARIS
12-18-2011, 09:11 PM
Wow!!!
The 08 map works great. Tuined the fuel and ended up with only taking a little off the top (7000-8250). My plugs are dark brown and it rips!

Need more snow.:smow::usa:

Jeff

Whats your elevation you ride and what head you running. what map are you also using.

civerson86
12-18-2011, 09:43 PM
Stock head everythings stock besides the fix kit, slp full exhaust

t stone
12-18-2011, 10:22 PM
On the Gold do you mean for break in or in general?
I have not tought about the oil in gas effecting the injectors. Is the tinking that the oil may slow the flow through the injectors?

I hope I can keep up my buddy who got a new 2012 ProRMK 163.

NEVER, LOL. Im glad to see that thing running good. Going up wdenesday? Noon at dutchman.

Troy

Jeff95
12-19-2011, 10:17 AM
SLP 13.2-1 Head Riding around 6000-7000 feet.

Jeff