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View Full Version : Is there an additive that can be added to Ethanol fuel?


towngrunt
11-10-2010, 08:41 PM
Was just curious if there was any additive that can be added to the Ethanol fuel to offset the Ethanol? Also what exactly is Ethanol?

94fordguy
11-10-2010, 09:39 PM
Not sure on the additives, but here's a definition.

"Ethanol (ethyl alcohol) is an alternative fuel fermented from corn, grains or agricultural waste or it is chemically extracted from ethylene (hydration). It is used primarily as a supplement to gasoline".

High Velocity
11-10-2010, 09:47 PM
This is the only one I've seen so far. There's likely others though.

http://mystarbrite.com/startron/

Skidooer
11-10-2010, 10:04 PM
Its corn alcohol. It attracts water. Al Gore likes it.

AndrettiDog
11-10-2010, 11:05 PM
This is the only one I've seen so far. There's likely others though.

http://mystarbrite.com/startron/

That is just helping with the water issue (ethanol attracts water and contributes to sludge buildup). It is not offsetting the ethanol in the fuel. I've been reading up a bit and asking around and it seems the only way to do this is to mix in race fuel/av gas. But you don't want the octane level too high because then the fuel won't burn as hot and you will lose power there. For my stock sled, I would be extremely happy with non-ethanol 87 octane.

800poodragon
11-10-2010, 11:48 PM
Here is the way I understand it. There is no additive available that improves or eliminates ethonal. There are 2 different additives available thet are supposed to make gas last longer or as some say to improve it...that is the Startron and Stabil. Neither one actually improves anything in the fuel, what it actually does is add kerosene to the fuel to "cover up" how the fuel deteriorates and make it seem to run better after sitting for awhile. Ethonal actually does nothing to improve fuel but is a by product added to fuel to make X amount of fuel (oil) imported go farther. It actually makes your fuel burn faster (needing more to get the same amount of power), is harder on your engine parts because your fuel does not burn as efficiently, when mixed with gas decreases the amount of time that you can store your fuel as it will absorb any moisture or water (condensation) and become even more inefficient. It is just a "politically correct" thing to do as it provides revenue for the products used to make the ethanol (and some jobs)and keeps us from having to send more of our dollars for oil to the middle east(out of our country). EPA keeps wanting to increase ethanol blends but most vehicles cannot handle that. No there is not any additive to counteract or nullify ethanol in fuel. Once it is blended in it is there to stay. Sorry for the long rant...had an hour and a half conversation on all this and more just today.

towngrunt
11-11-2010, 04:39 AM
So from what I have read so far is, "we are screwed"!

53farmer
11-11-2010, 05:16 AM
I have burned ethanol in my sleds since the early 90's. Never have had any trouble with it. Everything I have with a gas motor runs great with it.

Stewy
11-11-2010, 05:23 AM
Startron and K100 are two good products. I like startron best.

zitterich246
11-11-2010, 07:48 AM
I have burned ethanol in my sleds since the early 90's. Never have had any trouble with it. Everything I have with a gas motor runs great with it.

X2 I dont think I could find an ethanol free pump around

tree climber
11-11-2010, 08:36 AM
so how much race fuel would you have to add to a tank of e10 to be able to run the premium resistor

LeftField
11-11-2010, 09:37 AM
Race fuel will not offset ethanol.

The 'ethanol' resistor adds more fuel because the ethanol has less energy than straight gasoline. Without the correct resistor the engine will run too lean with ethanol in the gasoline. Adding race fuel will not get rid of the ethanol.

Options might be:

1) Find ethanol free gas - see http://pure-gas.org/ for a list of stations
2) Run the ethanol resistor
3) Put on a fuel controller to fatten up the fuel-air mixture, run premium and use the non-ethanol resistor - probably more risk & trouble than its worth.

800poodragon
11-11-2010, 09:45 AM
I agree that it will burn without noticable problems. And it is something we are going to have to deal with. The problems now are that they are getting these motors tuned much better with fuel injection instead of carbs and the injection system has no way of knowing. And with these dyno tests now you can see the difference in performance it is making with how they have to tune them to get the most power and meet EPA. Also the inherent problem of ethanol and water. The problems are only going to get worse as the EPA wants to keep adding more Ethanol to the fuel.

mountainhorse
11-11-2010, 09:50 AM
Its corn alcohol. It attracts water. Al Gore likes it.

Actually BIG business likes it... Whatever the party affiliation. rRepublican and Democrat.


CLICK HERE (http://www.snowestonline.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2467332&postcount=6)

mountainhorse
11-11-2010, 09:51 AM
For filling... even/especially from the pump...Use one of these to keep as much water out of your tank as possible.

Use it at the pump and when fueling from cans... make sure that you keep your on-sled can clean and use this to fill it.... be extra careful when fueling in the field so that you don't get snow/water in the tank during the transfer.

http://www.outerwearsracing.com/proddetail.asp?prod=11022

http://www.outerwearsracing.com/prodimages/FUELFUNNEL_1.jpg

Also... to get out any water without running it thru the system (like with IsoHeet etc) .. I like to use Aquasocks

They are working on a smaller one for power sports, but the #12 works fine.

http://www.aquasocks.net/

I've used them in a lot of equipment and they are very simple and work... I like to clip a small fishing weight to the bottom. so it drops right down to the bottom.

Put it on a fishing line, drop it in the tank when not in use for a while.. It only absorbs water not gas.

I keep a plastic jar with screw lid on it to hold it between uses... remove it from the tank, squeeze it out into the catch can in the shop and store it in the jar...pretty easy...

AndrettiDog
11-11-2010, 10:26 AM
Ok, I agree that av gas/race fuel won't remove the ethanol fuel, but won't it dilute the amount of ethanol in your fuel? If you run 100% of 10% ethanol fuel you have more ethanol in your fuel than if you run 50% of race fuel with 50% ethanol fuel - RIGHT?

53farmer
11-11-2010, 11:24 AM
My cat sleds have efi. Don't you think Polaris and Cat have this figured out. Ethanol is required in Minnesota. My brothers dealership puts ethanol in every sled that goes out the door. I think to much is being made of this.

tree climber
11-11-2010, 11:28 AM
i thought the issue with the ethanol blend was that it caused detonation so by adding race fuel you would counteract the effect of the ethanol and be able to add more timing. just like you can add more timing running race fuel as opposed to premium

AndrettiDog
11-11-2010, 11:54 AM
My cat sleds have efi. Don't you think Polaris and Cat have this figured out. Ethanol is required in Minnesota. My brothers dealership puts ethanol in every sled that goes out the door. I think to much is being made of this.

We already know the sleds will run on ethanol fuel (10%). What we are looking for is better performance and the option to run the non-ethanol plug on the Pro Ride. More HP! Woot, woot

LeftField
11-11-2010, 05:02 PM
If both fuel types have the same octane they should resist detonation equally (with correct A/F ratios).

Unless the correct plug is in, the ethanol mix fuel will run leaner which will tend to increase EGT. A lean mix can also be more prone to detonation. Adding race fuel should help the latter, and as Bugito suggests, adding race fuel will dilute the amount of ethanol fuel in your tank.

Question is - how much do you need to dilute it enough? That's the several thousand dollar question...

Ron
11-11-2010, 07:23 PM
Can you make Ethanol better with AM additivies, race gas etc.-No the expense and trouble aren't worth the cost. There is some good info on Ethanol in prior posts but I'll add some points for emphasis.
1. Alcohol has higher octane so blenders use lower quality gas and get the same octane as non ethanol premium. The refining process is much simpler for regular than for premium but you can take mostly regular, add alcohol and you get octane equivalent to premium. Most of us don't really understand the ramifications but the fuels are not equals. Ethanol fuel with the same octane does not perform as good as non ethanol.
2. Ethanol is corrosive and any rubber parts, fuel lines, gaskets, etc will degrade. On newer equipment this is less an issue than with older "stuff". Ask any seasoned mechanic, I had one tell me that Ethanol was very good for business.
3. It takes more Ethanol fuel to make the same power so mileage is reduced-this raises the effective cost of the fuel and reduces the range you can travel with the same amount of fuel.
4. Ethanol fuel has a shorter shelf live than non ethanol. After 3 months it can go through "phase seperation" and the alcohol seperates from the gas. Too much moisture can cause phase seperation sooner. When this happens and you get a shot of straight alcohol you risk burn down-now you need a lot richer mixture. Also the lower quality fuel mentioned in 1 above degrades in quality sooner, don't leave it in your tank for 30 days.
5. Rare but true-some have reported getting higher %'s of alcohol than the 10% max that defines ethanol. This is usually discovered after an engine failure and subsequent testing of the fuel. Try to hang this one on anyone. The blending process is getting better but still subject to human error or equipment malfunction.

The sad truth is we are stuck with Ethanol and have no alternative in many locations. I go to a lot of effort to use only non ethanol but realize that this will likely end very soon. EPA is leaning on the states to mandate ethanol and the Ethanol industry is asking to increase the blend to 15%. Farmers love it=higher crop prices. Most don't really understand the issue fully and it's almost UnAmerican to object to reducing our dependence on foreign oil.

Roadwarrior102
11-11-2010, 10:01 PM
Ron is 100% correct on all points. I have been a sled mechanic for over 15 years, all of which involved ethanol here in South Dakota. Ethanol is here to stay, my best advice is to keep it fresh in seasonal machines. If you dont burn a full tank every month, pump it out and put it in your car or truck. $.02

As far as Pro RMK's, use the ethanol plug for fuels that contain it. There is little to gain by trying to cheat the system, and a lot to loose.

If you are a serious tuner and install a wide band and fuel controller the sky is the limit for the possible combinations.